THE IMPERFECT SHOW NOTES

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Neal Goodman  00:00

In my sociology classes, I would use books like The Autobiography of Malcolm X, which had a profound impact on me, but also have them read the Wall Street Journal. I wanted them to see different perspectives. Not that there’s one right way or wrong way. But clearly knowing what background I came from a background they weren’t. I really wanted to try to expose more general world to them actually started process of interculturalism internationalize the curriculum.

Achim Nowak  00:32

Hey, this is Achim Nowak, executive coach and host of the MY FOURTH ACT podcast. If life is a five act play, how will you spend your FOURTH ACT? I have conversations with exceptional humans who have created bold and unexpected FOURTH ACTS, listen, and to be inspired. And please rate us and subscribe on whatever platform you are listening on. Let’s get started. I am just delighted to welcome Dr. Neil Goodman, to the MY FOURTH ACT podcast. Neil is an internationally recognized authority on globalization, global mindset development and cultural competence for global corporations, global dynamics, the company he co founded in 1983. And I’m stressing this because Neil had this incredibly long run, designs, organizes and implements programs that support global mindset development, cultural competence, global leadership, and diversity and inclusion in leading fortune 500 companies. And I just want to add this global dynamics has worked with absolutely everyone across industries. Neil also served as professor of sociology at St. Peter’s University for 33 years, and retired from that role in 2005. And just this spring, at the age of n, I hope this is correct, Neil 75, Neil sold his beloved firm global dynamics to create space for his next chapter. Hello, Neil.

Neal Goodman  02:18

Hi, Achim. And thank you for that wonderful introduction.

Achim Nowak  02:23

You’re, before we dive in for listeners, I just scratched the surface with Neil’s incredible accomplishments. I’m sure we’ll learn more about them as we speak. One of the things that I know about you that I want to invite you to talk about is your your passion for social justice, and appreciation of differences between people started when you were just a young man who was still a student at the height of the Civil Rights Movement, can you take us back to that and how your interest is how that was formed?

Neal Goodman  03:02

Sure, thank you. I really don’t know why I was picked to do this work. It certainly has been I call an unplanned life, which has been truly exceptional. So rewarding it back in 1963, I was invited to attend a leadership camp for teenagers. My mother has encouraged me to do that, because she wanted me to build on my resume, which academically wasn’t all that great. So I went to it, unbeknownst to her, it was actually a civil rights camp. And that was probably much to her surprise. Again, I don’t know why. But I just, I could feel it in my heart. I could feel it in my brain. I was meeting with young people my age. Again, high school sophomores going into junior year, from different backgrounds, races, religions, ethnicities. Just hearing everyone’s stories, I realized how profound bias and prejudice bigotry are, and how it’s a real cancer for humanity. I want to emphasize that I did this from a background of probably, you know, having my own biases clearly. Not knowing what they were until I was at that camp. It was one of my first lessons to realize that, that if you’re going to do something in this world, you’ve got to try listen to other people. And I’ve always learned the most from people who are different from me. So back in 63, I came back from the camp. I started getting involved as an activist, I started running leadership programs for teenagers.

Achim Nowak  04:51

Let me stop you. So when you say I became an activist, I started leadership programs. Where did you do that?

Neal Goodman  04:58

I grew up in Jersey City. Working Class Home, my family was certainly working class, I think to some degree because I came from a less wealthy family, let’s say a poor family, it got me to appreciate others more than if I had been born to a wealthy family, where I would have just taken some of that privilege for granted. So that helped. But so in 63, in Jersey City, I was attending Schneider high school, I started tried to start a civil rights group in the school, the principal heard what I was doing, called me into the office and said, you know, stop doing this. I said, Okay, well, can we do something? And he said, Well, I’ll let you make a little speech before the assembly. And I wrote a little very innocuous poem, really ridiculously insignificant, but he, he wanted to see the poem, I read it to him, showed it to him, he immediately says, offered some suspend even the high school, which will ruin my academic career, obviously, he called my mother, who was working full time at the time to keep us going and pay for my college tuition. And she came into the office, he told me what was going on, he gave her the poem. And again, you have to remember, she’s a working class, Jewish Republican. Okay. So very different, very Eisenhower, Republicans. And she turns to the principal and says, this, Mr. Carroll, I’m the head of the women’s auxilary for World War Two veterans. And I, my husband and all of our friends, we went to World War Two, to stop people from acting the way you want to act. And if you want to prevent him from speaking like this, I’m gonna go to all the veterans organizations in Jersey City, let them speak out to you. And he immediately apologized and said, No, he’s not suspended and all the rest. I gave my speech, no big deal. We started a brotherhood Committee, which to him was having a tape sent between New Jersey City and Sweden. That’s not what I was about. He said, there was no race issue in America or in high school. Obviously, there was, that’s sort of how I got started, I invited the YMCA, the Cy yo and other groups to join me. So we tried to be as diverse as possible. And we had some very good meetings. Unfortunately, at the time, the CIO decided not to support it. Even though the Pope was very much in charge involved in ecumenical movements. Ironically, at this retreat, the Civil Rights retreat, there were two Jesuits who were speaking on the area of religious diversity. And I’d always been taught to watch out for, for priests because they always try to convert you. Ironically, they asked me if I might attend St. Peter’s College, so I can prove the diversity of the student body and help Catholic students better understand Judaism. Ironically, I think I did more to teach Jews about Catholicism than the other way around. But that’s another story.

Achim Nowak  08:15

Well, there was so many delicious things in what you just said. without me telling my own story, there’s a moment in my life. When my mother surprised me and became my ally. That was transformational for me. And I was going, how beautiful that your mom knew what to say in that moment. That’s just gorgeous. Now as I listen to you, I’m thinking of three tracks. And Neil Goodman’s life, you know, you’re describing young activism. But you also had a 33 year academic career and you had your corporate consulting career. And even though the substance of your passion is probably somewhere in all the way it was expressed in different contexts was different. So if we can just break this down for our listeners, one reason I wanted to speak with you Anil is because you’re clearly a long distance runner. And the longevity is interesting. And the courage to then move on and do something else is also interesting. So if we can talk about your academic careers, 33 years professor of sociology, you got a PhD in sociology from NYU. You taught it at St. Peter’s. I also I taught college for a while at NYU, as you know. And when I think of college teaching, I think of the moments where you go, this is why I’m doing this. This is amazing. And they’re also the moments where you go Why the hell am I doing this and putting up with this nonsense. So can you give us an example or a story? for each of those opposites, which we’re always reconciling.

Neal Goodman  10:04

Sure, and certainly the positives way outweigh the negatives, I mean, to be paid to learn, which is what you are as a professor, is the greatest job in the world. So, you know, how can you turn down a job where they’re going to pay you to learn to share what you’ve learned. The highlights for me was helping the students at St. Peter’s again, who all from working class backgrounds, first generation college, as I was, to see the world differently, to experience the world differently. I had the privilege when I went to St. Peter’s to have the Jesuits encouraged me to study overseas, which I never would have thought of. And not only did I study overseas, they encouraged me to study at Hebrew University of Jerusalem, in Israel, beautiful, which was not a Jesuit College, obviously. And it was in 1967, right after the major war in the Middle East, when Israel occupied parts of Jordan, the West Bank, Egypt and Syria. And so there was a lot of tension going on. The war was in June, we arrived in July. And I immediately went to work as a volunteer have reached out to Arab students, Israeli students, students from Africa that were attending. So when I think about my academic career, I wanted to share that experience with the students at the college, I set up a International Studies program so they could study overseas. One of my very best students, it was Italian Catholic parents immigrated from Italy. I encourage her to study overseas, she went to Italy actually to study. She later went to Johns Hopkins and graduated with a master’s in International Studies. And she later in life, just joined the State Department. But she was in charge of the US Embassy at the Vatican for about six months, during which time she invited her parents to come visit her and stay in the US Embassy at the Vatican. So imagine that so and they own the grocery store. I mean, again, it’s those kinds of experiences, I have students still writing to me, that find me on LinkedIn, and so on, and they say, do you really influenced my life? That’s by far and away. In my sociology classes, I would use books like The Autobiography of Malcolm X, which had a profound impact on me, but also have them read the Wall Street Journal, I wanted them to see different perspectives, not that there’s one right way or wrong way. But clearly, knowing what background I came from, what background they were in, I really wanted to try to expose more general world to them. I actually started process of interculturalism, internationalized the curriculum, and led a lot of faculty seminars on internationalizing the curriculum.

Achim Nowak  13:00

I one thing that strikes me as you’re talking is your, your enthusiasm and passion for what you do is just infectious. And I really feel it. And I have thought you’d rather not talk about the challenges. I think that’s part of life and part of moving forward is how we navigate those. What comes to mind there for

Neal Goodman  13:24

you? Yeah, absolutely. Again, I was extremely fortunate that I had myself invited to the East West Center, which was a think tank in Hawaii. And as a result of that experience, came back. And that’s when we launched global dynamics. And so the challenge in academia, such as it was, you really can’t be a prophet in your own time, I was trying to make changes, but couldn’t make the kinds of changes I wanted to the college president wanted me to join his cabinet, but only if I could follow what his goals were, which I didn’t always agree with. So I didn’t join. But at the end of the day, after 35 years, in academia, I was getting bored. I was teaching the same thing over and over. And I was doing teaching the same thing in a two day seminar at major corporations. Unlike the students in the classroom, who said, Oh, will this be on the exam, that people in the corporate world was saying, Boy, I really need this. I wish I knew this sooner. I wish my boss would take this course. So there was so much feedback, positive feedback from just two days of training that I didn’t get in academia.

Achim Nowak  14:32

I have to chuckle as you’re saying this because as somebody who has also taught at the university level, and has done similar corporate work, what I love about the corporate work, people want to immediately apply what you’re doing. And now it’s not not preparation for a future career is now now you know, and and that in need, so you have an immediate impact. That’s profound, isn’t it?

Neal Goodman  14:57

Yeah. It’s so rewarding, I guess. until, you know, not just reading evaluations, but getting emails afterwards from people. It is that immediate feedback that you don’t get in academia.

Achim Nowak  15:10

So let me ask you the entrepreneurship question. Because a lot of fourth actors, part of the fourth act can be as oh, maybe I’ll start a little organization or nonprofit or something around something I’m passionate about, and many people are. And I include myself when I think of myself as a serial entrepreneur, but I felt like I don’t know what the heck I’m doing. You launched a company called global dynamics with your wonderful wife, BARDA in 83. So this is an almost 40 year run, which is insane to me. Take us back to the beginning. Because you have an organization, you need to have clients, you need to find work, you have the passion, but you need to build a business. What is some of the stuff that you and Baroda faced at the beginning?

Neal Goodman  16:04

Well, probably the biggest problem we faced was I went to get advice from this organization called score, which is part of course, is Small Business Administration. And I laid out what I wanted to do. And these were retired executives from big corporations. And I told them what I wanted to do what our plans was, and they said, you can’t make any money doing this. No corporations interested in cross cultural understanding, you know, just forget it, you’re wasting your time. So I mean, so part of it was both being an academic, neither my wife or I ever took a business course in our lives. And so we’re doing this as a dream. But I guess my ignorance helped me out. Because I was very persistent. I’ve been working since I’ve been 10 years old. So I’ve always been a serial entrepreneur one way or another. But I’ll say with global dynamics, I was giving out a lot of free speeches to professional organizations. And we gave ourselves a year and a half, or we’re gonna close down global dynamics. We’re gonna close down global dynamics in January, that November, just before Thanksgiving, I gave a speech to a professional organization. That was the week of Thanksgiving, the following week, I get a call from one of the learning heads at AT and T. Att at the time was the largest corporation in the world. They by law, they were not allowed to be international until about two or three years earlier. And most of the people who work there, they were either from New Jersey or Indiana, they had no passports had no desire to be global. Fortunately, they had asked me to write a program for them. Unbeknownst to me, they were promising that course this device, the wife of the Vice President, for international, I was able to convince them to let them give me a shot at teaching it not just creating the curriculum, they wanted to own the curriculum. I said, No, it’s my intellectual property, let you use it, but I need to own it. So that the challenges were. And maybe it’s the advantage, again, of being so ignorant about everything against us that, you know, we just pulled forward. And as a result of that one’s free speech I gave one month before we were going to close the global dynamics, we wound up training over 120,000 employees of AT and T Wow, all over the globe, teams, families going overseas, you name it. So there was so many wonderful stories from that. talk forever about some of those cases, but just amazing how much experience we got. And because at&t own Bell Labs, there was a lot of gravitas and status associated with being a consultant to AT and T for globalization.

Achim Nowak  18:56

I was chuckling again, internally, because I know you’re a humble person. And when you said as well, I didn’t know what I was doing. You knew enough to not give them your intellectual property. So that was a very good starting point. And I think I just got a sense of just the scale of your impact with your first engagement. You already talked about the satisfactions of working in corporate environments, corporate entities. I know. When I read your introduction, you know, I mentioned of keywords like creating a global mindset. I don’t know if I said this. One is I know you’re really want to help leaders and teams work well, I would say across cultures, with people from different cultures. Other than at&t, if if you were to share one story from your incredible career that that sort of encapsulates the beauty and power of that work helping leaders To Work mindfully and thoughtfully and respectfully across cultures, what story would you tell?

Neal Goodman  20:07

I mean, this is not purely the cross cultural side, but it’s more on the cultural diversity side, I got involved in helping hospitals, build their cultural competence of this staff and their employees, the doctors, the nurses, everybody on the staff. So we were asked to create a cultural competency program for first by the American Hospital Association for their office of diversity. And I gave seminars for them. But then I was asked also by Florida Hospital, one of the largest hospital, the largest hospital in Florida, to develop a program for them for their leaders. So we designed the program as sort of a train the trainer type of program. For their top, I’d say 100 leaders, we did this in person, we each leader was in charge of a particular area. So we might have been charged with food services, we might have been charged of medical education, so all different areas, community outreach, others, all different aspects of the hospital attending. And as part of the program, we asked each individual to set up a plan where they would build cultural competence within their own team, because they’re all responsible for teams. And then with the approval of the hospital, we set a deadline that within we’re gonna have a retreat within one year, where people get to report on their progress, what they’ve accomplished, and the officer diversity, collected some of those as well. And at the one year retreat, we had maybe 10, particular leaders present the best of the best, I can’t tell you how rewarding how inspiring, I mean, literally, everyone who made a presentation got a standing ovation. And they all learn from each other, you realize that you’re making a difference not just in their lives, but in the patient’s lives. They learned how to better care for people who are Muslim and other religions. So again, to me, that was one of the most rewarding experiences I ever had. And as a result of it, I wrote an article together with the head of the American Hospital Association’s of diversity. And I wrote an article with the Head of Diversity for Florida Hospital. So again, it’s one of the things that I think makes us successful, I bring our clients in as much as possible, being co presenters or CO writing articles, so that it’s not me, it’s really our clients or our sales force. It’s only because we have such a relationship of trust with each other.

Achim Nowak  22:50

A word from your sponsor, that’s me, I invite you to go to the website associated with this podcast www.my, fourth active.com, you will find other equally inspiring conversation with great humans. And you will also learn more about the my fourth act mastermind groups where cool people figure out how to chart their own fourth acts. Please check it out. And now back to the conversation. I appreciate a lot of what you said that that sentence I wanted to stress because people are Tolstoy taught so many marketing things. And meant much of it is very good advice. But I have run my life successfully. On the simple motto is my clients are my sales force. And I do very little to sell my clients do the work because we do good work. So I wanted to just second that for anybody who’s listening and would like to start a business is if you if you do great work for your clients. Why the hell would your clients not want to refer you to other people? Of course they will because they have been empowered and enriched by what you did, right? We could spend so much time talking about global dynamics, because this is the fourth act podcast. I want to go to Acts in new Acts. And to just create some context. You and I were introduced to a professional acquaintance, gosh 1819 years ago, and we discovered that we both were moving to Florida pretty much at the same time in the same summer ended up living 15 minutes from each other go figure so we weren’t clearly meant to know each other. But it was something that I remember I was at your 60th birthday party, which was held in a restaurant in North Miami Beach. And even around that time and You and I had not lived but you were, you had already started to think about selling your business and letting go of global dynamics. I mean, you live in this stunningly beautiful place in Aventura, you know, you’ll have a cliche, Florida resort lifestyle. And those thoughts were percolating, and you turn 60. It took you until you turn 75 To make the sale. So I want to use you almost as a case study for others who have something they’re passionate about. They’re thinking of moving on. But he just isn’t easy. So would you tell us? How did you navigate from the initial impulse, I think I may want to sell global dynamics at some point to actually doing the sale, which you did, literally in the last few months. So just now,

Neal Goodman  25:53

I assumed that I would retire I would sell by 65, not 75, I kept looking for the right opportunity. And also the right frame of mind. I mean, the one of the things we had going for us and against us was we were very, very successful. We, as I said, we never had a business development person. We don’t do any marketing or advertising. But clients keep calling us. And it’s exciting. It’s exciting work. It’s global work. It’s taken me all over the world spoken in China and Korea, Japan, Germany, France, Italy, you name it to turn away some of that was very hard. And so I just kept lingering. But fortunately, I had the tremendous opportunity to attend, I guess your very first fourth act, mastermind group. It wasn’t until I attended that group, and heard from other professionals, who were sort of going through the same life and professional experiences that I finally had the courage to say it time is enough. You said working since I’ve been 10. Give yourself some time off, I have two phenomenal daughters who I’m very proud of both very successful in male dominated Co Op organizations, and professions. For wonderful grandchildren, I need to take some more time off, spend time with them. You said I live in a great place, I don’t think I’ve been to the beach more than 10 times since I’ve lived here. And that’s 15 years. I know you go to beach all the time. And I want to do more of that for sure that I’m 10 minutes from the beach. So at the end of the day, I need to get out and enjoy life more.

Achim Nowak  27:48

I want to drill down a little more on what you just said. Because what I heard is, of course you were your successful business. amazing opportunities kept coming in. And it was just hard to say no, when stuff was just coming in. You weren’t chasing the work, the work was chasing you. But I have a hunch that again, as you entered your 70s, there was part of the work that was still almost like when you were teaching at St. Peter’s that was this was still very sexy and exciting. And part of it was, yeah, I know how to do this to run the business. But this I don’t really think I want to do anymore. Can you talk to what was still really stimulating your soul? And what was maybe feeling less appealing as you get older?

Neal Goodman  28:39

Sure, I think I’ll do the second part first, I very much realized that the speed of change today is slower than it will ever be again in my lifetime. And that goes for everybody. I see the change, I see the innovation, I see people morphing into different technologies, etc. And I found that, you know, it’s kind of hard to keep up with that speed of change. And I also saw other areas for potential growth. I’m very committed to global diversity on the global diversity group on LinkedIn. So I want to be at a higher level, perhaps a consultant, a person that can guide organizations that want to be global want to be more successful in inclusion. I’ve always been committed to Global Inclusion, the inclusion making organizations more globally inclusive. And so I guess the challenge was having a bit less physical and mental agility to go forward. And knowing that I found an organization that I could sell the company to that was going to take it forward that had I mean, we’re two people with three people basically myself, my wife and I had Programming, Dana Klein, and she’s gonna be staying with a new company. But knowing that that new company can take this so much further, when maybe when we started, we were the innovators, the creators, but I see so much new things happening, inspiring things happening in the area of diversity. Nobody talks about diversity. When we started a global dynamic. Even when I went to that first camp, it was called the Brotherhood camp. And the goal at the time, was to teach people to tolerate one another. He imagined, I start my seminars by saying, Tell your person sitting next, the, you’re going to tolerate them for the next hour or two, you know, people, Oh, my God, but that’s how far we’ve gone. So I’m so happy that we’re at a place in time where diversity is accepted and understood as a benefit for organizations around the globe. It’s not just a US thing anymore.

Achim Nowak  30:57

Again, it says, speak with you. And I know you’re personally but I’m getting struck by your just your passion for life and for causes and things that matter to you. And because you literally just a few weeks ago, the sale went through. And you get to decide how Neil spends his time now. And if I want to use the cliche is I’m sure everybody said just slow, everyone’s probably going to slow down a little bit and smell the roses while you figure out what to do next. So number one, I want to know, are you actually able to slow down and smell the roses? And part number two is because your passion for things is so evident? I know you’re going to channel it in some direction. Do you know how you want to express your passion? Perhaps differently now that you no longer own global dynamics?

Neal Goodman  31:56

Well, the answer to that is no. I would say so far, I’ve been just as busy as I’ve been in the past, because during the period of transition, I’ve offered to help the company that purchased us. So I basically been working almost full time during that. Introducing clients organizing the transformation, just yesterday speaking to their senior staff about how we do business, because it’s kind of a bit unusual. We sold it to those mostly corporate rather public work, government work, not corporate work. So how different that is. But again, I’ll say this, to all the listeners, I’m purposely giving myself three months, the final part of my transition with them will be the beginning of September, and I’m giving myself all that time after September, as much as I need I’m assuming at least three months, just to do nothing except let things come in and not work. But let ideas come in, let the universe come in, understand, you know, get a better feeling for where I should take my next act. I’m not gonna sit on my hands, obviously, but I don’t know what it is, I want to let let myself open to that.

Achim Nowak  33:10

You know, what, what I saw appreciate about your statement is, and I’m just thinking about, especially American culture, we are so conditioned to always make plans, right? And so the idea that for three months, and not gonna make plans and just see what comes in, that’s actually really radical, because we’re not conditioned to do that. So will you be able to just have three months where you let things come in? Can you do that?

Neal Goodman  33:43

I will say, I really hope I can. I know I was inspired by you and other members of our mastermind group to think about starting a podcast or, you know, something like that, or maybe a mastermind group. And then I made the decision. No, I’m not going to look to do that yet. I will think about that. But I don’t want to, I’m not looking for work. And I’m looking for the time when clients are going to call and say, No, I’m not the one to help you now. And we are transitioning our clients over to the other company. So I’m looking forward to that time when people won’t be calling me they’ll be calling the other company. And the other company always has my phone number. And I’m happy to support them and deliver training for them or

Achim Nowak  34:34

help them Are you hustling work right now? Is that what you’re doing? Are you just saying? No,

Neal Goodman  34:40

no, I said that to the to the company that bought us.

Achim Nowak  34:46

I’d love to complete our conversation with this question seems very pertinent to you because you you keep reminding us that you you’ve been working since you were 10. You were an activist early the UK common thread was your passion for failing to be simplistic, creating a more respectful, more just world. And this journey that’s taking you to so many different places, what have you, Neal learned about yourself that maybe you didn’t know as a 10 year old boy, from all the different encounters you had as a college professor, as an activist? As a corporate leader? What have you learned about you?

Neal Goodman  35:32

Well, again, it goes back to the fact that I don’t have the answers. The answers are within the clients within my students within others, I go into a program, knowing that there’ll be somebody in the audience that’s much smarter than me that I can learn a lot from, that will help me in my journey to learn and discover, I know that it’s critical to be interested, not interesting. I understand that to be successful, you really have to challenge yourself to see the world from multiple perspectives simultaneously. Again, I’m just humbled by what I learned from other people or from books, certainly, from the mastermind group to I’m a consummate learner, I’m a student more than anything else.

Achim Nowak  36:21

So if people have been listening to you, and are inspired by what you’ve been saying, and and want to learn more about you or find you, where should they go? And remember, you can send them to global dynamics, because that’s not your business anymore. So don’t do a global dynamics website. Where would you like to send people?

Neal Goodman  36:40

Well, I would still say, go to global dynamics.

Achim Nowak  36:44

No, you’re not. It’s not your business? No, no.

Neal Goodman  36:49

So I am going to be starting a new organization, at least tentatively called the Neil Goodman group. I’ve haven’t started the website, but we have the domain, we will work on the website gradually. So they can go to Neil Goodman group.com. And write to me there. I’m so happy to share anything, from my experience with anyone. I have listed things I’ve learned over the years happy to send that out. But there’s probably multiple people out there, who I can learn from. I’m always looking forward to talking with people. I guess that’s one of the advantages I’ll have now is the time to have more longer meaningful phone calls, where I’ve had to stop those sometimes, but I wanted to continue. Do you respond to LinkedIn messages? Absolutely. Okay. Heavy into LinkedIn. Awesome. Yep.

Achim Nowak  37:40

Well, thank you. I want to first of all for the gift of the amazing work you’ve done for decades now. And thank you for sharing some of this in this conversation. I’m, I love you and I’m really, really grateful for this.

Neal Goodman  37:55

The feelings is certainly mutual and I look forward to again, building on our friendship and professional relationships.

Achim Nowak  38:03

We will do that. So bye for now.

Neal Goodman  38:05

Bye. Thank you all. Good luck you.

Achim Nowak  38:09

Like what you heard, please go to my fourth act.com And subscribe to receive my updates on upcoming episodes. Please also subscribe to us on the platform of your choice. Rate us give us a review and let us all create some magical fourth acts together. Ciao

k  47:03

Beautiful. If our listeners want to learn anything else about you, because they’re curious about you, I know you have a LinkedIn profile at any of the places where you would like to send people who want to learn more about yours that the best place that LinkedIn

Jim Zupancic  47:17

is great. I’d say that’s probably the best place it’s James hyphen, R hyphen, Zupancic. That’s my LinkedIn handle there. That’s probably the best. I’m happy to get back with messages. Usually within a week. I’m not I’m not the fastest on LinkedIn. I’ve turned off notifications as a sanity check. But LinkedIn is a great place and I’d love to hear from anyone. If anyone had any thoughts or ideas or advice for me, I’d be all yours.

Achim Nowak  47:45

Thank you for the gift of this conversation and statistic. Best wishes for your next act, which is starting in a couple of weeks. Bravo.

Jim Zupancic  47:55

Thanks, I came for everything. I always enjoyed talking with you.

Achim Nowak  47:59

Bye for now. Like what you heard, please go to my fourth act.com And subscribe to receive my updates on upcoming episodes. Please also subscribe to us on the platform of your choice. Rate us give us a review and let us all create some magical fourth acts together. Ciao