THE IMPERFECT SHOW NOTES

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Richard Phan  00:00

I had the feeling that the culture at HP didn’t fit me because it wasn’t technical enough. It was a little bit too political, as we would say in those times. I wanted to prove that logically, I decided to be extremely political and to be crazily political, which was totally not my way of working. And after a year of being very political, I got the best promotion in my division. And so I proved to myself that the system was exactly what I did not want. And so the conclusion was, I need to leave

Achim Nowak  00:39

Welcome to the my fourth act podcast. I’m your host, Achim Novak, and I have conversations with exceptional humans who have created bold and unexpected lives. If you like what you hear, please subscribe on any major podcast platform so you won’t miss a single one of my inspiring guests, and please consider posting an appreciative review. Let’s get started. I am just delighted to welcome three exceptional humans to the lifeworth Act podcast, and we have three because all three of them and I are involved in what I think is a really fantastic and also seasonally appropriate book called daring metamorphosis. So that’s a pretty bold title, and want to talk about why we have that title. Let me introduce you to the three guests. We’re going to speak with all of them and forward to what we’re going to discuss about the meaning of metamorphosis. Sophie romias is a transgenerational coach, as well as an exceptional poet and anthologist. Sophie is the editor of this book during metamorphosis. It’s her third anthology. She’s also co author of souls in love, a gorgeous poetry collection written with her partner Sam Yau, Sophie hills from France, Dr legit Bucha. I hope I didn’t totally butcher that as a brand identity strategist from Austria, she is passionate about speaking, podcasting, leadership training and executive presence, and she has an extraordinary journey and past that got her to where she is today, and I look forward to talking about it. Richard fan is an entrepreneur from France animated by a passion for technical innovation, Richard learned some significant life lessons during the seven years he spent in Silicon Valley before he returned to France. He now resides in Lyon, where he actively champions other entrepreneurs and entrepreneurship. Welcome all. I’m so happy to have you here. Sophie, I’d love to start with you, because you cleaned up this book called daring metamorphosis, and the word metamorphosis stands out for me. So I have a hunch that has a special meaning for you. What does the word mean to you?

Sophie Roumeas  03:20

Well, for me, a metamorphosis, it speaks about profound, deep change. It speaks about steps of life. It’s a journey where each stage is as important as the other one. Of course, metamorphosis, in the universal consciousness, is often represented with a butterfly. We all know the butterfly stages of evolution and how the butterfly, one day, is spreading its wing in a way of flying by itself in this beautiful life journey. While sometimes metamorphosis may not be any easy process. We know this right. Metamorphosis is also to embrace both easy and easy change. Metamorphosis in France, we have Auschwitz, which means dare so. The French word itself is already including dare to be. Somehow.

Achim Nowak  04:19

I just love the phrase dare to be. I mean, we could spend hours just talking about the phrase you just put out. We’re going to talk mostly about other contributors. You know, you created this book. But before we talk about others, if you had to talk about a metamorphosis in your own life that seems especially important, or that stands out. What comes to mind

Richard Phan  04:44

first? What’s coming is resilience, somehow resilience, because I realized in life, often we need to de learn in a way, to give space for the new metamorphosis. Is my own personal life. We. Was really about it, how to de learn, how also to embrace what was passed on to me. So it’s a balance between both of them being thankful, grateful for what was given to me as an education for my family from school, and then what I had to de learn, to really step into real me. That is a process of resilience, and this is how I was able to access synchronicities, which is

Achim Nowak  05:32

a beautiful work we’re going to talk about a little bit as well. I’m struck by your repeated use of the word D Learn, because I think for many people, resilience has a tough connotation. Right i facing struggles in life, and almost like I’m the tough survivor and de learning I hear as an active process, an active engagement with my past, and which allows me to move forward, rather than being defined by the past or stuck by it. So I want to thank you for that language. I’m a as you know, I’m a fellow editor. I’ve also put out anthologies. So I want to ask you, when we create an anthology, we invite authors to contribute, but we don’t know what the heck they’re going to send in, right? So there is this funny moment where we invite people and then the thing that they write somehow shows up to two questions. They’re related. How did you decide who to invite, and what was it like to then receive their contributions.

Sophie Roumeas  06:42

Thank you for these questions. Well, I want first to say it’s a privilege to me to receive the writing of quarters. It’s a privilege. It’s a joy. Sometimes I laugh when I read, but sometimes I cry also, because everybody is so authentic to answer to your questions, so how did I choose the quotas? Well, I think it’s not me. I think it’s a book. This book came into my mind and certainly my soul during the pandemic, when I realized this pandemic, you know, in some time, allowed us, but also imposed to us, to get closer to our intimate self. I saw people around me who would ask questions, existential questions, people who would, you know, move somewhere else to have this pandemic moment where they had to do the lockdown, and some people who would question the sense of the meaning of life, or the meaning of the daily life. So this book started to step into me at that moment. And then in beginning of 2024 this book really came and really whispered to my ear, okay, now it’s the time you need to step into my energy. So I did, starting at that point people I would meet again or talk with it became obvious. The book wanted to invite them to step into its energy, which is really what happened. Some people I knew, like friends, colleagues, and some people I just met this year, I think specifically about a young lady, she’s in Montreal. I was visiting with my partner Montreal, at that time, she was the art gallery owner. Then it was so obvious she if she accepted she could be with the team of the book. So this is all a matter of synchronicity.

Achim Nowak  08:35

I love your use of saying the book was whispering to me, because I think part of what I know we’re going to talk about is, how do we all hear the whispers, right? And how do we listen to them, and how do we trust the whispers, and the fact that you listen to your whispers. And here we are talking about a book. It’s pretty wonderful. Richard, I want to just mention the title of your essay, which I think is first of all really cool how Silicon Valley transformed me into an entrepreneur, and I have a chain I will hunt you use the word transformed with great purpose, but to set the stage, I know that you were in France. You worked for Hewlett Packard. They sent you. You were in your late 20s, to Silicon Valley, and you were thrust into this magical bubble for people who weren’t in Silicon Valley at the time. Give us a little taste of what it was like for you as a young French entrepreneur. Hewlett Packard to land in Silicon Valley.

Richard Phan  09:41

Yes, it was in 1997 so it’s really before even Google existed, all the companies started to feel the craziness of the internet going up and going really fast, and that’s one of the reasons why. Hewlett Packard found it to be easier to hire engineers from abroad than hire them in the US. Hewlett Packard had enormous means to transfer engineers from their subsidiaries all over the world to Silicon Valley, very quickly and in a matter of weeks, I was hired and moved to Santa Clara, California, and it was totally new world for me. Coming from France, I knew a little bit of the American culture because my cousins and my uncles were living there in the US, and I’ve spent several summers with them, but I never worked inside of a US company in a US state. So everything was very new. It was like a French tourist said one day I heard on the radio, everything is so big, roads are big, cars are big, offices are big, even people are big. Everything is much bigger, and the business is also much bigger, a lot more ambition, faster. Very fascinating.

Achim Nowak  11:09

What interests me, in the spirit of our book and the different Metamorphoses, because I read your piece, so I know what you’re right about, is that at some point you got disenchanted with you, look Packard, and you left. And that’s a powerful departure, right where, with this big company, they brought you there, and I’m always interested. So how do we know or decide that it’s time to make a change?

Richard Phan  11:34

So I’m an engineer by training. My thinking is very logical. I had a feeling that the environment at HP wasn’t what I liked. Namely, there was a famous entrepreneur who created Netflix, and he said culture is not the big words that are on the wall. Culture of a company is a reason why people get promoted. I had the feeling that the culture at HP didn’t fit me because it wasn’t technical enough. It was a little bit too political, as we would say in those times. I wanted to prove that, logically, I decided to be extremely political and to be crazily political, which was totally not my way of working. And after a year of being very political, I got the best promotion in my division. And so I proved to myself that the system was exactly what I did not want. And so the conclusion was, I need to leave it was very easy. I

Achim Nowak  12:41

appreciate how you describe your own experiment, but, you know, I’m a coach, so I had to chuckle as I was listening to you, because you you said, I’m very logical. And at the same time, you could say, I had this feeling that this was what it was like. So I heard both, and I just love that you followed your feeling with a logical experiment. I mean, it was just, what a wonderful adventure. Now, what happened afterwards? You were in things got a little tough and difficult in Silicon Valley, and you weren’t with big Hewlett Packard anymore. So

Richard Phan  13:17

what happened then? Right, so I went into a startup which was one of the most successful and the fastest growing startup at the moment, in about the year 2000 2001 the company was called handspring, and honestly, it’s the best company I’ve ever worked for, really Good people, really good atmosphere, great management, and the internet bubble burst right after I joined the company, suddenly, I was in a company that started to do quarterly layoffs because they were public and they had to show that they managed their expenses after Three years of incredible growth, I saw firsthand that there was going to be many quarters, incredible de growth, the several layoffs. And coming from France, where we are quite protected as an employee, against layoffs and even unemployment in the US, it’s very different. I started to be afraid of what the consequences would be for me and my family of being laid off because the business wasn’t good.

Achim Nowak  14:27

And what I’m curious about, you went from this political animal where you got promoted, you went, I need to get the hell out of here to company that seemed to have a much better culture, but it was like, holy cow, will I have a job, right? So this is what I understand, and I want to again related for our listeners to daring to make changes, metamorphoses and the theme, how did you handle the fear and the uncertainty, the unpredictability to be in. A place that felt wonderful but didn’t have the security that you had at yoga. Packer,

Richard Phan  15:06

exactly, first, I remembered a teaching from my father who said, Never be afraid of anything or of anyone. And when I felt that fear, I remember that phrase, and I said, so how can I be not afraid? So I think stopping, taking a step back, ping from another angle, helps a lot. So I started to question everything that was in front of my eyes. And first of all, I had to analyze what the environment was. How did managers decide who to lay off? What was the logic of the company? And because I changed myself, the environment I was in a company that didn’t value politics, interpersonal relationships, but valued results and dollars, results measured in us, dollars, which was very pragmatic and very startup like, the conclusion to me was the best way that I’ll never be on any list, is that the result of my work is indisputable and is so good that people will never think one second of putting my name on those lists. And so that’s what I decided to do, very logically, given the environment, given the way people make decisions, and I decided to be the best at my job as I could be.

Achim Nowak  16:38

Let’s jump forward to where you are now in Lyon, you work with the other entrepreneurs. How has that insight or that wisdom served you to get to where you are? And how does it continue to serve you in, obviously, in

Richard Phan  16:54

the world? Two things, I think, is, one is keep this teaching of not being afraid. I think this is very important. And when you feel that bad things are going to happen, do not fear them. But as in chess, we say usually that the best defense is to attack, be offensive, take the initiative. The other learning from that experience is that it takes a lot of personal leadership as well. It’s very related to the idea of leadership. Take the matter into your own hands, make your own decisions. Don’t wait for others to decide for you. It’s really the key of entrepreneurship. I think it’s making decisions for yourself, for people, for your team, not being afraid understanding risks and do the best you can, and if bad things happen, you have done as well as you could, and there is nothing to regret, and you just need to move on.

Achim Nowak  17:53

I appreciated everything you just said, and what especially stood out for me and most hard was having the courage to make decisions. I appreciate your emphasis on at some point we have to make a decision. Decisions energetically, change what happens, and then more gets revealed, right? We’ll talk to you some more. But I would love to turn to Brigitte. And I was saying we had a little chat about Brigitte. Is it an international soldier. She said, I call you Bridget, I can call you Bridget, but since my native language is German, I think of you as we get the your essay in this book is very powerful, and I love the title, from hiding to thriving, my journey to becoming visible. Now, what stood out for me are two things. Number one, you’re an incredibly accomplished person in your life, and they were all to me as a reader, all these distinctly different stages you went through to get to where you are now. You started off as a flight attendant. What you do now is completely different, but maybe connected. Give us a sense of where you started and how you decided to move on from one thing to the next.

Brigitte Bojkowszky  19:14

Thank you, Achim, for your question. Yeah, everyone is asking me that. How come? I mean, you started out as a flight and for flight attendant, and now you are an entrepreneur, and you had all these different walks of life. It’s such an unconventional journey. And it just happened. I think there’s a lot of synchronicity involved as well, and I think we’re coming to that later on, but reflecting on that journey, I can say it was a mix of instinct and intuition, but also a willingness to explore the unknown, to go into the nothingness, which often was sparked by a sense of. Being ready now I’m ready for more, ready to move forward, even when I didn’t know where I was heading. And there was always this, in a sense, yeah, an inner sense, something was nudging me. We talked about this whispering when, when you had the conversation with Sophie, right? There was an inner whisper, something, you know, hey, it’s time to move on. It came like waves. It was always there, and then it was gone again, but and I recognized when it was there. So it means something, it showed up, and it was time to do something about it, take the next chapter. So I was trusting that feeling and took that step forward and tried to just give you an example in the earlier career as a flight attendant, I saw the world. It was exciting. It was a colorful life experience, experiencing new cultures and connecting with different people from different mentalities and countries, and I really didn’t dwell much on what’s next. Right during those years, there was no time it was an adventure. Every day, something new, whether it was an emergency or this or that, I was just simply living. But over time, I began sensing a deeper calling, a desire to connect with people in another in a more profound way. But I also had this yearning for a more intellectual life. I needed intellectual stimulation, so I knew I need to do something. There was no study and flying. So I knew I had to choose. It was also at that time, as a flight attendant, I had this natural end to it, because my contract ended when I were turning 36 so there was always this, then at that time, what’s next? And I didn’t want that to happen. So I knew I had, there is a change coming, and I want to define what it is. And then I moved on so that this feeling of it’s time to move on surfaced. And yeah, I brought about that change and and that was very much an intuitive thing, but then when I committed myself to change the strategic side kicked in, because then when I knew, Okay, I’m doing it, I mapped out how to make it what is my vision? How to bring that into reality? What are my next step? So I created a step by step plan. And sometimes you don’t have a choice life. Sometimes has really a way of pushing us to move on. Yeah, whether we are ready or or not. It is time. I was working with a company in 2008 and, you know, there was the financial crisis. It hit hard. The company I worked for in the real estate development industry went bankrupt. I lost my job overnight. But also it had to happen for me, because it was the time to reassess who I am, regardless of title, regardless of the organization I belong to. It was time to figure out who I am, truly, who am I truly as as Bridget, and that was really important, because I think we always try to search for validation from from the outside world. It was about validating myself. Who Am I? What can I bring to the table? What is special about me and just see myself going to the core of who I truly am? So it was kind of a mixture, you know, I chose when it was the right time. That’s a culmination of instinct, but also a strategic approach. Then so one demands the other, and sometimes life is pushing you.

Achim Nowak  24:08

There was so much wisdom of what you said. And I, for me, you so beautifully described what I call the dance between hearing the whisper, committing to something, making a choice than being strategic, and it’s all it’s all connected. So you said that so beautifully, because,

Brigitte Bojkowszky  24:28

as you say, yeah, it’s a mixture or a partnership between the two and the love. You say, It’s a dance, because the instinct guided me to see when it was time to move on, and the strategy helped me to take the next step so one demands the other, and I don’t think I could have fully done or embraced one without the other, and I believe intuition is what brings you to. The Edge, something that when you have this open mindset, you allow yourself to do that, because otherwise you stay in the comfort zone. You don’t go there. You don’t go all to the edge. You might dream about it, but when the instinct becomes so strong, then you need to go there. You need it. Yeah. And then strategy is really what helps you to take that leap with that purpose. Because when you have such an instinct, some such a strong calling, there is a higher purpose behind that’s what I truly believe.

Achim Nowak  25:32

Because your essay is called my journey to becoming visible. Would you describe to us. We can spend hours on that topic. So I’m going to ask you an impossible question, but if we go to the end result, which is your current state, and I know life continues to evolve anyway, but how do you experience being visible today in your own life? And how is that meaningful to you?

Brigitte Bojkowszky  26:05

That’s another very good question. It’s also a dance, because being visible means being out there, being seen, it’s being authentic when you’re not wearing a mask, and when you are authentic, you’re also vulnerable, because you’re showing your true self. So that is sometimes I’m enjoying it, sometimes I’m afraid of it. It really depends. It’s a constant learning. It’s a constant dance of putting yourself out there, being out of the comfort zone. It’s it has this not really fear, but you’re nervous about it. But once you have done it, you feel really good. And once you have done it, you also see that it’s not such a big deal. And actually it opens up and invites those people into your life. It there is this synchronicity again, because you attracting those people that are supposed to be part of the next chapter, part of that journey. Because when you’re doing your true self, when you are open like a book, then you create this, this community of people that understand you, that support you, that lift you, you’re inviting the right people into your life. I think when you are having a facade on, when you are having a mask on, when you are trying to be someone and to live up to some others expectations actually, then most probably, you’re also inviting people into your life that are not good for you. And I think we all have experienced that. And also this, this people who rather drain you instead of fill you with energy, who liked you, who are not lighting you up, you’re tearing you down. So and I think it’s when we are trying to fit into a mold, when we are trying to please others, when we are forgetting ourselves, to always please others. I think a long term that is not sustainable, and there is a point where it comes, and that was in my case, okay, I just don’t want this for my life, for my future. Stepped into, into owning what I want.

Achim Nowak  28:34

You are clearly doing it. But what I also heard, which I appreciate, is continues to be a dance. There are different facets to the dance. Sophie, you like all of us who participate in the book, carefully chose some language that’s meaningful to us, that two words that are part of the title that really stand out for me, and one, let me start with this one, because we’ve already mentioned it a few times, which is the words. In critics. And I want to start with you, Sophie, I want to open up to all of us. What does that mean to you? Yes,

Sophie Roumeas  30:08

thanks for the question. The first thing I can say is that to me, words, they carry a frequency. So words, they enter into us in a certain way. So depending how we welcome them, they can open up possibilities in us. All of you are using coach, coaching skills for yourself or for others to facilitate others. We know that words have a power. So synchronicity, to me, has the power to allow us to step into the unknown and to recognize that the universe has our back. So when we dare to think about a dream, a project we want to carry on because it has meaning for us, then the universe is doing the best to help us with synchronicities, meeting people, listening to a song, reading a book. I have one thing on this anthology. There are few people who mentioned the same book, and this book had a special meaning to me back in many years ago, when I was in a not easy place, and this book helped me, you know, to move on. And this book title itself was dare to leave the audacity to live exactly so to me, daring is carrying the seeds of audacity and synchronicity. Sorry, I stepped into daring already.

Achim Nowak  31:32

No, we’ll throw it all together. Richard and daring synchronicity. What those words mean to you? I’d love to hear from both of you. Go

Richard Phan  31:45

ahead, Bridget Okay, so

Brigitte Bojkowszky  31:47

I think both are connected. Daring to me means breaking out of the malt. This is what I did, going beyond conventions, leading an unconventional life, in my case, doing things that others would not. It’s just stepping out of the comfort zone and moving into what can feel like nothingness, as I explained before, taking the leap and then trusting your instinct, your inner wisdom, and trusting that everything is happening for you. I really learned that throughout my life. I was not thinking like that in earlier years, but I do now. Then there’s also the synchronicity that is coming in when we dare then I truly believe the universe is conspiring with us, and I see the synchronicity right in there. Because then once we do that, once we step out, synchronicity shows up like the guide. There start we start people attracting to us, opportunities to us, certain situations, and they feel perfectly aligned. And that’s how I see when you dare then there is synchronicity. And I think important is it’s it should always come from a place of love, from a good place, because then things are happening. That’s it for me. Wow.

Richard Phan  33:18

It’s a tough act to follow, but you can do it. I exchanged with Sophie before that, I don’t feel synchronicity as much as I feel surprised. And I think to feel synchronicity, you first need to have an open mind and notice that things happen. And sometimes you’re really surprised by how they happen or what happens, and when you’re surprised, that means it doesn’t follow your usual path of thinking, way of thinking. And if you stop there and think a little bit about it, why you are surprised? Why did those things happen? That’s probably when you start noticing what you call synchronicity. And so to me, before synchronicity comes noticing and being surprised, and then when comes the time to act daring, to me is the opposite of being risk adverse, adverse. So think the European culture and the French culture is very risk adverse. People here at school and after in at work, they hate to take risks, and it’s very it’s a mystery to me, because they are more afraid of the risks than the consequences of those risks, because when you think a little bit about it, maybe you take a risk, but the consequence is not significant, and you should take the risk just to try, just to learn something new, just to discover something new, just to meet people. And I think daring means you understand your limits. You understand the risk. You are willing to take and you just go for it.

Achim Nowak  35:04

I I’m listening to you both, and I’m thinking of just a moment in my own life, and I have an essay in the book that I mentioned this moment. But I’m a German man who spent much of his adult life in the United States, but this year, I returned to Europe, and I live in Portugal, and my partner and I had had checked out cities like we checked out Amsterdam, Germany. We love Dusseldorf, but we went on this vacation to Lisbon. And I grew up in Lisbon, and then I said to my partner say, Let’s go to elicita, which is a beach town where I spent every summer as a child, so it was this nostalgic thing for me, and I just dragged him along. But when our driver dropped us off on the little square and we walked into the old part of every Sarah, my partner, by the way, Richard, who was a lawyer and a very logical person, he kept saying uncontrollably, I could live here. I could live here. It just came out of his mouth. I could live here. I could live here, which, at that moment, we both knew it would be Portugal. It wouldn’t be disadorbid, it wouldn’t be Amsterdam. And the other thing that I learned in that moment, we could live in a small town. We don’t need to be that big town. This was a smaller town. And that was we all have. That was the whisper, that was universal guidance, right? Just, it couldn’t have been clearer. But the daring part, Richard is to this, to notice it that, because the rest would just execution. You know, finding what’s the right city, get a real estate agent. But all those things, it’s not hard. Once we’re clear, then you just execute on the clarity. Right? Sophie, one of the things I know about this book is that they’re authors from different parts of the world with very different backgrounds and experiences. Can you give us a little snapshot of how many authors are in the book and just the different places they come from,

Sophie Roumeas  37:05

yeah, well, thanks for the question. So this book does intend to create a platform, a platform for different voices on this huge topic, which is about change, about transformation, the personal journey of transformation. How could it be better than described by different voices with different cultures, different backgrounds? This book is has been joined by people so from France, where I’m originally from, and also from United States, also from Portugal. You are two people actually living in Portugal, and so some people from Switzerland, one person from Canada, one person, of course, bridges from Austria.

Achim Nowak  37:58

We have an author from Bucha, and

Sophie Roumeas  38:01

we have another plan. And Guillain Vu, his name is that I met on one of your podcasts. Achim, the fourth act is so rich, is so beautiful for people to meet each other virtually, and it’s the extension of the world is one of the best part of a technology, by the way, to me,

Achim Nowak  38:23

now I’m going to ask just as we complete the conversation, because, you know, you’ve read a lot of wonderful essays from our authors, I’m going to ask an impossible question, but I’m going to put you on the spot, because you said the beginning you read something, you might laugh, you might cry. If you had to pick just one story or one moment where you read a piece from one of the authors of the book that really stirred you deeply, and if you had to pick only one, what’s a moment that stands out for you? Thank

Sophie Roumeas  38:55

you for this impossible question. Achim, every essay is deeply authentic. This is why it’s so difficult to answer this question. Because right now I can, you know, I can have a lot of details from all the chapters coming into me right now, I could really say that when I read I felt a lot of emotions. On some I really cried. Some I really laughed, because they all have this power to mirror something inside of me. And this is also what I wish will happen to the readers. I remember one example I gave a little bit earlier, different people will mention the same book, and even one of the lady who would mention this book just told me it’s incredible, because she’s helping to translate from French to English. And she said incredible when I read this chapter. And this is what comes back to me right now, the book mentioned by someone else. This fall down from her library at home. This is what made me the most happiest about this book, is to realize how many synchronicities in only this book with 20 different authors. I know I don’t answer your question the way you would like. But this is really what comes to me, is to enjoy the meaningful synchronicities. And I look so much for what for people to discover it.

Achim Nowak  40:31

One of the things that I love about this book is that it’s being published in French language and in English language. I love that it’s being published in what’s traditionally the holiday season, when when we all look for inspiration, and also where many of us are ready to look inside and we’re ready to think ahead to the future. So the word metamorphosis, I think, is a meaningful word the entire year, but especially in the season. Where can our listeners find this book? Would you give us some direction and guidance?

Sophie Roumeas  41:08

Yes, sure. So this book will be launched on December the 10th, first on the platform, on Amazon. So it will be available for a few days as a digital book, and then available a few days later as a paper book. And it be, indeed, it will be launched in both languages, English and French, the best way to honor all of our quarters and also to be able to touch the heart and the soul of as different with us as possible. And so then there will be a website for this book actually created. It will be called metamorphosis dot space, where people will be able to find all the information about the book. But of course, about the co authors, all of the co authors, and also about the team, of course, who help us to make this book happening

Achim Nowak  42:00

wonderful, and we’re recording this a little before December 10, but we’re releasing this conversation right around this time. Listeners the book will be out as you’re listening to this. So look for the website. Go to Amazon, and I hope you’ve got a sense just by listening to Sophie and and Richard, we get to how how deeply personal and inspiring this book is. So I invite you to check it out. Get to Richard. Sophie Duncan, sure. Messi bu thank you for this wonderful conversation, and I myself look forward to reading all the other essays so that spirit. Goodbye for now. Goodbye.

Sophie Roumeas  42:47

Thank you. Thank you. Achim,

Achim Nowak  42:49

thank you so much with pleasure. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of The my for the ACT podcast. If you like what you have heard, please like us and leave a review on your preferred podcast platform. And if you would like to engage more deeply in fourth act conversations, check out the mastermind page at Achim nowak.com it’s where fourth actors like you engage in riveting conversation with other fourth actors. See you there and bye for now. You.