Season 1
46 Minutes

Ep. 9 | Saamdu Chetri | How Does a “Happiness Guru” Experience Inner Peace and Happiness?

Saamdu Chetri, Ph.D., 64, was born in a cowshed in rural Bhutan. After 5 years of working in the cabinet of Bhutan’s prime minister, Saamdu co-founded and headed Bhutan’s Gross National Happiness Centre. The Centre’s focus on measuring the country’s GNH instead of GDP, and its framework for fostering happier countries, gained worldwide recognition.

Saamdu is the author of 2 books, has been featured extensively in the global media, and generously shares his wisdom on mindfulness and happiness practices at conferences and institutions of learning all over the world.


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Saamdu Chetri  00:00

Mindfulness is definitely a journey to happiness, and it can be practiced at any age doesn’t matter. If you’re a two year old person or a 60 year old person or 70 year old person, all you need to do is start.

Achim Nowak  00:18

Hey, this is Achim NOwak, executive coach and host of the my fourth act podcast. If life is a five act play, how will you spend your for that? I have conversations with exceptional humans who have created bold and unexpected for thanks, listen, and to be inspired. And please rate us and subscribe on whatever platform you’re listening on. Let’s get started. It gives me great pleasure to welcome some new chatri to the My fourth act podcast. Sandy was born in a cow shed in a rural and very remote part of Bhutan. He holds a PhD in commerce, he spent 20 years working in private and developmental centers in Bhutan. Then he spent some time working in the cabinet futons, a prime minister. And then some do co founded and headed the gross national happiness center in Bhutan. The Center’s focus on measuring the country’s GNH Gross National Happiness instead of the GDP. And its framework for fostering happier countries received worldwide recognition. Samu has written a couple of books, he has been featured extensively in the global media. And most importantly, he generously shares his wisdom on mindfulness and happiness practices at at conferences and institutions of learning all over the world. And today with us some do I am just delighted that you’re here. Welcome.

Saamdu Chetri  02:06

Thank you, it’s a very special honor for me that you invite me to your four generation podcast.

Achim Nowak  02:17

Yes, level, I, I call it fourth act. But I like fourth generation, it’s a wonderful way of looking at it. Because when I think of generation is, I think of the ways in which we continuously regenerate ourselves, right? And the possibility that exists every moment of every day. So it’s a beautiful phrase that you introduced. I am really interested in changes and transitions in our lives. So the story of how you who was so identified with the gross national happiness central ended up moving to, to a new playground in India really interests me. But before we go there, I like to start every podcast by finding out about what you were thinking of dreaming of maybe when you were a young boy. And in your case, you grew up in a small rural part of Bhutan, which is probably really different from how our listeners grew up. So can you give us a glimpse of what that looked like? And as a boy, what, what you were thinking of when you thought of your future?

Saamdu Chetri  03:39

Thank you for this wonderful question. The place I was born is in a cow shed, in most rural parts of the country, which is still so grown to that place. It’s totally forested. Now it’s become a part of a national sanctuary, in fact, so I grew up with plants, animals, as my childhood. So I am playground was the forest. The claim friends were the insects, the plants and animals. So that’s how I grew up. I have no dream of any kind because the world for me was so small, it was just focused and concentrated around that forest and livelihood, the way that we started with our livestock. So that does my early part of growing up. But my brother having seen little bit of outside of the forest was so convincing that he convinced my father to bring me to a school, which was born in the same year like me. And my father thought, Oh, my son going to school far away from the capital. One he’s totally dependent on direct ducks, how could you survive? So know what my father did? He brought me to school with a cow. Again.

Achim Nowak  05:10

Well, I, to me, that makes a lot of sense. And I just keep thinking you had a really smart father. You know, it’s great thinking as I was preparing for our conversation, and I’m going to say you and I have met before, so you’re not a stranger to me. But I did a little bit of background research. And one thing that I stumbled on, which surprised me I didn’t know about you is that you are married at the age of 15. And under, let’s say, curious circumstances. And because that is part of what happens in our childhood that will shape us. Can you give us a little bit of the story of how that marriage happened?

Saamdu Chetri  05:57

Well, yes, definitely. You see, when I began schooling, actually, many incidents actually brought me to a new level of thinking altogether. Having seen a helicopter land in the screw ground, and having made the pilot as a young boy, speak a word of English, they’re looking for a plane that had crashed. And this was Indian armies, I suppose. So I knew where the plane had crashed. So with great pride, with my hands around my head, I turned around to show them when the plane had crashed with sunlight. And they understood me, they went back into their helicopter and flew away. So a dream that I had childhood dream was to fly. I don’t know what it meant. But to fly? Well, yes, I left school. In fact, before I got married, I left for because my all my siblings got, you know, they just separated from parents. They were nobody to look after his parents. And then I started working in the field, because I loved working in the farms, with animals. And after just about a year, my brother again came back to rescue and he brought me to school, far away from home with them. And when I came on my winter break, my parents said, Let’s go for a pilgrimage to Nepal. And I said, Why do you want me to go with you, you know, take somebody who has grown up, I’m still too young to help him in any way. But in the forced me that I should go along. I don’t it must be my feet, or I don’t believe in this. But, you know, it has been such a circumstantial thing that I went, it’s a long story to make that long story short, a group of people met us in the same bus from some distance as we started to drive in Nepal. And we were together all through the pilgrimage for 15 days. And this group had a young man who became kind of a very good friend of mine. And he thought he was not with them, but they somehow made a story around to bring me to their home place in a path. And it was a kind of a commotion that they had with my parents. They agreed, they just kind of blocked me around and brought me to that house. And you know, as a young chattery a boy, why, you know, we do a secret trade ceremony. And before that you don’t get married. So they even kidded me, they’re saying that, you know, because the marriage that you’re going to witness his brother’s daughter’s marriage, and therefore, you know, the few boys are getting children their hair here, here so that they can get into the same money for this time, the secret trade and all that, would you like to take to that as well? I said, Well, no. He says, well, you’re grown up. I don’t know when you’re going to do and back at our home you have to go almost completely naked except your private parties. Only God that with a very thin linen cloth here you don’t know anybody. Why don’t you go for him. And that of course, then I got into into it and we have that ceremony and that also tie that in that very evening in the ceremony is as they are given the chair to see it and there was a chair on my right. I see. You know that my brother or or a friend that we have created on our journey to Nepal together with clearings and girl on his back and brought straight home to my right here. Let her sit and as our Getting up at a heavy hand behind me is one of the maternal uncles of this girl who traveled from far away, you know, the whole thing happened. And after that, I have no choice, but to get into the whole rhythm of getting married. But you know, I was so frustrated with my parents, and I decided to commit suicide, I thought what is the use when I am not trusted enough by my parents. And so you know, there was a big well nearby, and what they had done, they are prepared a small makeshift house outside. And they didn’t allow us to sleep there. So the girl and the me, they put in that house, because they said she’s married, she cannot live there. Now the entire house, she has to leave the house altogether. So they put me there with her. And I didn’t sleep, of course, at exactly at 330, I got up from the tail end, from that, make sure tabs, open the door to see if anyone was around, and slowly walk to the, you know, to the web. And it was bit high. So there are two steps on it, I took the second step and I have just stepped onto the wall of the well, when the hand two hands came in, grab me. And it was the father of this girl who happened to be my journey friend. And he started bitterly crying, the whole house woke up, everybody came running. And this then they started telling me Look, if you take this girl, and four lives, she cannot get married. And so many things, they started to tell me that convinced me Okay, now what has been done is done, I will not do this thing and not not think about it anymore. But that are stunning. I’ll go back and study myself a time will come when I’m when I come back and pick her up. Nothing like that in Hindu culture, to call Hindu culture that the push the girl and us co they just hired a car pushed us in. And in fact, it had a small, you know, pick up man as well, to pack up all those things. That place that I ate on chairs, I sat on all those material things was packed it for me for us to do. So as a married young boy,

Achim Nowak  12:27

I I’m honored that you share that story and what my mind thinks about because I don’t hope I don’t I hope you don’t mind me saying this. Because you are known as a wise spokesperson with some understanding of happiness now, when that’s been a lot of your life’s work, and I’m sure you continue to learn and discover more every day about it. And what strikes me about it that many of us have our own versions of the moment you described when in childhood, something happened that it felt like impossible for us to go on. And then you’ve created a pretty spectacular life journey. I don’t want to spend a lot of time talking about your marriage. But I’m curious, because I’m sure the listeners are if you had to just give us an A minute snapshot. So what happened with that marriage?

Saamdu Chetri  13:26

Well, that marriage continued until I had two children. And when she was pregnant the second time, she was raped. And she could not overcome the social, you know, stigma. Although I left my colleagues in between just before the exams to come over, come back home and pacify her and tell her it’s not a mistake. What has happened, take it as a battery. Forget it, we will have live a wonderful life together. Just forgive that person who has done that and forget it. No, forgive yourself. Even if you had made a mistake. Don’t it doesn’t matter to me. But you know, you’re going to deliver that child in six, seven months. So you know, be careful. Yeah. And so I can return to my colleagues. But after a few months, she vanished. And just a lot 10 years ago, 11 years ago when my daughter was 30 or 30 years old. From this woman. She wanted to address Nepal. And she was doing a business in Kathmandu. So she somehow happened to travel to that village and find her mother. Mother has gone crazy. I mean, she’s in a lot of heavy seductions.

Achim Nowak  14:46

And clearly your fate in this lifetime is that this has been part of your journey and part of your story. So I I’m just happy to know some of this I, I want to get to the gross national happiness center. So again, just just to take us there, you know, you studied, you have a PhD in commerce you engaged in for over 25 years in various private development activities in Bhutan. I, I’ve had the privilege of visiting Bhutan, it’s a very special, beautiful small country, tucked away in the far region of the Himalayas. You worked with her in the Prime Minister’s office? But then you How does somebody start something like the gross national happiness center? Because I don’t think anything like that existed anywhere else in the world. And there’s this little country Bhutan, and there’s some new chattri, who says, I’m sure with the help of other people, let’s do this. Can you paint the picture? Like how, where did that all come from?

Saamdu Chetri  16:00

Well, the concept of gross national happiness is very much from the palace. Actually, the fourth King is messaging me singing propounded on draft National Happiness is more important than gross national product in Mumbai, when he was traveling from Havana after not a live human meeting to that to put on a journalist and oxygen, you are a king of a little country, what is your GNP. And that was the moment he propounded, although he had become king, when he was just running 16 because his father demised, early, he had this concept of how to bring happiness for the people in Bhutan. So it comes from him the whole idea of instituting the gross national happiness, because the the measures because the wording, believe us that this can be applied. So UNDP gave us money. In 2010, we started the research with 75 thought leaders from all around the world, all experts from around the world came in help to find what could be the measure for the index of gross national happiness. Now, of course, we found it in the country, we did six now, in 2019, we had an international conference. But somehow there was more party that took the ownership to bring changes to the world. And this is where the Prime Minister wanted me to create such a community around the globe, and bring tears to the world.

Achim Nowak  17:42

Word from your sponsor. That’s me. I invite you to go to the website associated with this podcast, fourth, you will find other equally inspiring conversation with great humans. And you will also learn more about the my fourth act mastermind groups where cool people figure out how to chart their own fourth acts. Please check it out. And now back to the conversation. With the way I understand it, some do and if I’m wrong, please correct me is that you identified. I’m going to call them some pillars or some some areas, things that a government can do to create the conditions for more happiness in the country. And at the same time, then it’s up to the individual to take advantage or embrace the opportunities that are created, am I presenting that correctly.

Saamdu Chetri  18:48

In fact, there are nine domains which return fields is very important for each individual in the country. So we try to create conditions in these nine domains through which people can practice their own skills for happiness. So we say if, if a person is below 50% of the conditions in time domains, then the person is not happening between 50 to 65%, the person is narrowly happy. And above 66 to 77% of the conditions in the nine domains, then we say is extensively happy. Beyond 77 we say he’s deeply happy. But you could go and ask a person would we put the measures rate him or her as a deeply happy person? Are they happy that he went you might get an answer No. And the same thing might apply to the person that we read as very unhappy. You ask that time Are you happy? Might she might say I’m very happy. No. So this GNS does not measure happiness, but it measures conditions to happiness. Are we giving enough conditions for people to pursue and practice their own well being and happiness,

Achim Nowak  20:06

you know, you’re going to have to give us an idea of what some of these nine domains are. Go. You don’t need to necessarily mention all nine. But But as you think of them, what, what are some that really stand out for you?

Saamdu Chetri  20:20

Well, there are five that really stand out. Those are actually measured by all governments. Now can again governance takes all the eight domains except psychological well being, because they consider that psychological well being is interdependent with other eight domains, which I would agree. Now, the most important of these eight domains, the five that I’m going to say is, timeliness is never measured in any government, cultural vitality, and resilience never mentioned. Also, community vitality never measured, ecological diversity and resilience are never measured. These are some of the, you know, focus points where it is forgotten. And of course, psychological well being is not measured, but it’s shown by the negativity that happens with these emotions, people commit suicide, depression, those are reported, but not work towards bringing conditions where people in that area. So if I add to those four, psychological well being living, standard health, education, good governance, these are the nine domains of happiness, just to give you a quick idea about how time us helps us, you know, put on things that we need to sleep eight hours, and now I realized that science, you know, if you look into Google, the easy, you quickly find out that eight hours of sleep is a master because your telomeres begin to, you know, otherwise reduce because they become cancerous. Yeah. And if you sleep well, you’re going to have a good rejuvenation of your body, which means your telomeres slowly will elongate and who is also slower, and possibly slower. So this research proves that what God did find out that eight hours is a must. And the eight hours, other eight hours work, and the other eight hours, the third eight hours must be spending how stores for your meditation for your exercise for your eating, drinking, washing, whatever, you following your hobbies, reading, all this needs to be packed in the other eight hours, including your social, you know. Now, there has been a study done in us in 2009. We says that during the 2009, life expectancy was 78 years, and 28.5 years, Americans are sleeping 10 years, they’re running behind money to get work, work work of their lives, nine years they have behind home chores, nine years, they will be on social media. It’s only six years that the gift for education and self grooming. Two years, they are shopping only two years, they’re commuting only. It’s only 1.5 years of their lifetime they give for their children, looking after children and the other four years, the good is for only eating and drinking. Now when you add all that together, your left something you’re close to 69 years, and what your left is maybe five to 10 years of five to nine years of your lifetime. Now your age, you’re retired, your workflow hardens, made some ceiling now you want to live a life longer. So what you do is you begin to spend all the money running behind a doctor for more medication so that you have a better life towards the end. Now I believe the GNS believes very strongly, we don’t have to wait for that moment. The moment we try to learn how to manage our time now and here, we will not have faced that difficulty when we were is we can still leave a very happy and healthy life.

Achim Nowak  24:04

I appreciate that wonderfully succinct overview of matters that are complex. I want to play devil’s advocate for a moment, if I may, because somebody might listen and say, well, it’s easy for them in Bhutan to have this idealistic view of gross national happiness. They’re a small country, you they’re not as crazy or as frenetic as we are in the West. It’s much easier to live that life there than it is in a city like New York or Paris or Los Angeles or London. What would you say to somebody who has that mindset who says Well, that’s just that works for Bhutan, but will it work anywhere else?

Saamdu Chetri  24:46

Yes, it is possible to apply this principle anywhere. Because this principle is based on mindfulness. Whatever development we talk about the values of development that we Talk about as our king, the present King, taking the cases, they won’t accept very beautifully that development must be with values me he raised values with kindness, equality and humanity. Now, if the whole planning takes place through this process of really balancing, making it holistic, making it collective sustainable and equitable, I do not see that it cannot be applied anywhere on the planet Earth. In fact, cities can be much more common provided because what is thrown to us shift our paradigm, it is not the real, it is what is called the illusions in Buddhism, yes, we, our minds are changed because of the illusions that are thrown onto us. We are made currently made jealous remit, comparing all the time, wanting more and more, this is done by if we can, you know, decode our own existence as true human beings from deep within, we will realize these are not material anymore. And we believe to see the world the way you want to see. And you become much more happier, because our ultimate goal of every human being, I suppose, is to be happy at the end of the day. And for that, of course, we don’t need these things. And Americans have done that research in 2010, I think Oxford and Harvard were involved in this, that, you know, in a city like New York and big cities, in America, if you earn $70,000 a year, then that doesn’t translate into happiness, until that you need that money to come into that level of happiness. And of course, if you talk into more rural part, or our semi urban part, the amount of videos, so I think we are scared of hearing. And this is what makes us fear everything that I will not have more tomorrow, I need to have more I need to have that fear has been instigated in us by the wrong conventional economic model called the GDP.

Achim Nowak  27:19

So again, we’re back we’re back to distinguishing between GDP and GNH. Right, and which is the origin of the beautiful work you’ve done. I want to go a little deeper with just with some wonderful things you just mentioned, the compensation. The distinction between what’s illusion that we’re attached to and what’s real. And related to what however, I want to say is when when I speak to friends about happiness. One thing that people say, especially Western is, well, you can’t be happy all the time. I really didn’t say that. We should be happy all the time. But that’s one thing. Like why don’t you talk about inner peace or being peaceful? What do you talk about happiness? Isn’t inner peace more important than happiness? And and how? How do we not get attached to being happy? Like, could you play around with some of these ideas and what they mean to you some do personally?

Saamdu Chetri  28:24

Sure, I mean, you know, like happiness, I would call have peace is actually you know, if you are not in peace, you can never be happy. So, peace itself is in happiness. When you are happy, you are peaceful within Yeah. That is for sure. Now, if you look into the quantum physics that talks about the different vibrations scales, pieces at 6600 Hodge per second, by duration, and below that joy below that at 514. A 500. is low 540 is joy, and beyond peace. You know, in between 607 100 there’s something nothing there. But after 700, you are enlightened, enlightenment is something that is permanent. That is that is undestructible. And after peace, you always recite when you have the inner peace, you always recited happiness. Now to get to the inner peace, you need to understand what it means. Peace doesn’t translate with material things. Peace translates with your touching the inner eye of your own self. When you touch the inner eye, then you’re able to distinguish the midpoint you’re an identity bored by excessive pleasures, nor be pulled by the excessive desires that can bring you down. So you find a mean way because you suddenly realize, learn to live in the present moment in now, when here with every printing moment, you are in the moment, when you’re in the moment that you don’t regret what happened yesterday, you don’t think what will come tomorrow, right? You’re leaving now. And people often misunderstand that mindfulness, I don’t have time for my goodness, they say. But mindfulness is not something that you need to sit down and meditate for us together, that’s just a small part of the whole mindfulness exercise, what we do, every breathing movement, every action that we take, even if we’re eating, drinking a cup of tea, or taking a bath, a shower, or, you know, washing pots, if your mind is completely focused without thinking outside of what you’re doing, then you’re mindful. This is a practice from waking to sleeping. If you can do that, we don’t need to look for happiness outside of

Achim Nowak  31:11

that is so beautifully said and I, I just so appreciate the reference reference to the inner eye, and all of the different ways of seeing and knowing that’s that’s what that meant for me. I want to go back to a comment you made earlier, because I hope this is important for, for our listeners, our fourth act listeners, because his stereotype is that as we get older, and I may say you’re 64, I’m 65, we’re similar age, the stereotype is that as we get older, we get more set in our ways, and that it is harder for us to change. But I’m assuming that our listeners are curious about changing, and I’m going to just make the assumption that maybe they want to know a little more peace and happiness. So what kind of wisdom would you give to somebody who is in our age bracket around? How you can make small changes in your life? How do you do that?

Saamdu Chetri  32:14

Right. And before I answer that question, you know, I would refer to a research that was done by Oxford again. And what they did was they brought 75 year old people who have meditating for a long period of time in their lives, yes, and 25 year old young boys, and they compare their brains to find exactly the same function exactly the same. They brought another group of 75 year old people who never meditated in their lives with the same 725 year old boys, when they compare their brains. These people who have never meditated, never tried meditating, they had their brain size was ridiculous. They have holes in their brains to that become really cheating. They forget forgetful. They were not sure about themselves. Now, this gives us a feeling that mindfulness is definitely a journey to happiness. And it can be practice that any is doesn’t matter. If you’re a two year old person or a 60 year old person, or 70 year old person, all you need to do is start when you get up in the bed in the morning, the first thing you need to do is push yourself against the bedpost, sit comfortably. Imagine how you past your yesterday, try to recollect all that you did yesterday. And think of today, what are you going to do today? And how are you going to make it a little more a little beautiful, little beautiful, not much less beautiful than yesterday. And then after you’ve decided to have resolved in your mind, or resolve or an intention today, I will keep smiling all day long. So for your own betterment period of one week when you do every day today I remain Happy Tuesday I remain happy. Every time you start thinking something you just want to be happy to be happy to you know, continue that for a week and will naturally start to become happy. But after that the intention, whatever intention you want to put for the day for the week, rather. Do a six minutes of mindful breathing. Not difficult, right? breathing, just flow with your breath in feel the chest expand your stomach rise and breathe out slowly feel this summer for your chest reduce air. You know leaving your nostrils just feel that for six minutes. If you’re not used to there is the mind wander We generally invite the mind to come back to again to breathing, listening to improving. Over time, it will become like driving a car, you will get into autopilot system, or riding a cycle or whatever it is a question of time. There’s the first thing one. Second thing after this is just slide on your bed and stretch as much as possible, then do a cyclic kick on the bed, you can raise your head slightly, or your upper back slightly hands parallel to your legs, and do a cyclic keep with your extended legs as much as possible. After that, when you’re happy doesn’t matter how many times you do it as much as you can. After that, when you step onto the ground, say thank you, mother, for letting me walk on you today. I’m grateful to you, I do a lot of nonsense on you, but you never thank you. Thank you, when you go to the bathroom, please make sure that you have affirmations on the mirror. And look at that person you see in the mirror and saying, hey, guy, I know you, you are extraordinary, you can do this, you can do that. Prepare your affirmations. When you’re taking a shower, filter, water run from head to toe, fill your hands movement, filter soap or whatever, you know, feel complete, be present with the water and yourself. Likewise, with every event you do, until you go back to bed, you have to be present, when you’re present. This is the best practice to be mindful, and I can promise you people of any age can regrow their brains, they will become much more functional, they will be much more healthier.

Achim Nowak  37:00

I you just gave us a wonderful list of examples of small things that we could do to to be more mindfully present in the moment and be able to do that. And the message I took from it. It’s it’s in these little intentional mindful things that we we open up a richer, deeper way of being, just being just being just being. And for our listeners, I love that this is an audio podcast, but what you missed, you know, I’m seeing some new on videos or recording some there was acting all of this out for me. So all the things he was doing his body was showing me how to do it, which was a complete delight. And I regret that I cannot share that with you. In the spirit of transitions, this is the last really question before we wrap up in the public mind. And by that I mean the people around the world who respect and love the work you’ve done with the gross national happiness center and your messages around happiness and mindfulness. They had they associate you with that place with the work you created under the guidance of your leaders. But a little over three years ago, you left and you’re in India now and I want to your you’re the head of the Reiki Center of Excellence for the Science of Happiness. Was that a big decision to leave Bhutan and work in India for a while? Perhaps it wasn’t perhaps I’m just making this up. But But how did you maneuver through that change?

Saamdu Chetri  38:46

When I left, I mean, I was 16 years old. So it was time for me to retire. And I got was that I began to travel even more bringing happiness to the world. And it so happened that immediately when China some people in China found out that I was going to retire they offered me by huge salary to come to China to work for them in an hour just evaluating thinking, Oh yes. Let me go to China for few months. And then I fly out from there to other parts of the world. That very moment. Some changes happened, there was a letter that came from this institute, asking me if I could come and you know, surgeon and I had a tough decision to evaluate. And I realized that India has been a great friend a favor for all our times. And I think the first priority that I should give is to India. And they were starting in this Indian Institute of Technology. I’m not the head of the center, but I’m one of the faculty within the center. Now my time has come Center is up and running beautifully. Well, in June, I complete my contract here. And I’ll be back to July.

Achim Nowak  40:10

Beautiful. I feel funny asking this question, but I want to ask it because we talked so much about staying in the present moment. But you also just mentioned while I might, my 10 year will be open, it will be over. And I will head back to Bhutan. When you think of the future, for yourself, for your family, for the planet, what what thoughts come to mind about the future and perhaps wishes or desires for it or hopes?

Saamdu Chetri  40:45

My hope is, if God willing, if I would get extension in my life, I feel I will have an avenue to really bring this change in the world. Because of the kind of lives that have touched for all the engineers here, I have a great hope that we can transform children, you know, right from schooling. So my hope is when I get back, I would like to start rolling out my ideas. As well create a center for the world, whoever wants to come and learn mindfulness journey. 21 days journey would help anybody to transform and go as a teacher to the world out there to transform others. And I have a hope that although we sometimes sound very negative about the whole world, the world is beautiful. Every human being or everything on this planet is beautiful. It’s only our dualistic views, that we see things bad and good. The moment we are able to see mindfully will see everything as one, seeing beautiful in its own space. And this is something that I still hope we can still create. Even if I’m gone in next 20 years, this will be my uphill task. And I imagine that this is a possibility to bring forward to the world that we all can be good human beings, because we have that nature in each one of us.

Achim Nowak  42:27

What when you start that center in Bhutan, I’ll be one of the first people to join you for a 21 day mindfulness journey. I’m just, I’m just making that commitment right now. If our listeners if they want to find out more about you and your work, because they’re curious, or they want to learn more about the principles, or the pillars of the gross national happiness Center, where should they look for this? Is there a website? Is there a resource? Where would you like to send them?

Saamdu Chetri  43:00

Right? So one would be if they just typed  all the resources required on this nine domains for builders, 33, indicators, 123 periods, everything is in there. And how it how it is measured, in fact, how waitresses have been assigned, everything’s out there for the world. So that’s one resource. If they want to know a little bit about myself, they can just write And they can find some resources. Somebody I didn’t know somebody Mumbai in India has worked something for for me, and my son found that out for me that existed. They brought up some information from my Facebook from here, there, they have compiled it. So then I would really genuinely request all the listeners if they want to know more about gross national happiness, how it can be practice, day in day to day life. I’ve written a book called Tashi. Tashi means auspiciousness. So it’s a book on Amazon, very cheap to buy. ( And then also, you get specific ideas about how can you do away with your different emotions? And how can you practice mindfulness. So that would be one book, I would really request all the listeners to go for it. The other one, which is going to be published by July, is bringing up happy and they’re also focused on how to really bring your change within the parent so that they can bring the change in all the children that they would nurture for the future. So these will be the two resources if really balanced who think, yes, we need to change for our children they can go for it doesn’t matter in what circumstances they are, whether they are in rural life or in the highest, you know, in the dense, you know, cities or urban areas.

Achim Nowak  45:21

Beautiful, I will I will make sure that these resources are listed on the My fourth ag podcast website. So, people heard it here, but they can also look it up. Again, I am immensely grateful to you for I guess just the gift of you and your spirit and your generosity. So, thank you for this conversation.

Saamdu Chetri  45:41

Thank you, I my all my love to you and your great work that you’re doing.

Achim Nowak  45:50

Like what’s your hurt? Please go to my fourth act calm and subscribe to receive my updates on upcoming episodes. Please also subscribe to us on the platform of your choice. Rate us give us a review and let us all create some magical fourth acts together.

Saamdu Chetri  46:13



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