THE IMPERFECT SHOW NOTES
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Denise Gallagher 00:00
Oh gosh, travel is a spiritual experience photographing is a spiritual experience. I guess I should say all of life is spiritual to me. There’s nothing that is not. I’m one of these people who I know intimately. That spirit is, is here. It’s palpable and everything I do and experience is a manifestation of that.
Achim Nowak 00:25
Hey, this is Achim NOwak, executive coach and host of the my fourth act podcast. If life is a five act play, how will you spend your for that? I have conversations with exceptional humans who have created bold and unexpected for that, listen, and to be inspired. And please rate us and subscribe on whatever platform you’re listening on. Let’s get started. I am just delighted to welcome Denise Gallagher to the My fourth act podcast. Denise is an artist, an occupational therapist, a marvelous photographer, and perhaps most importantly, is seeker and an explorer. She lives in Fairfield, Iowa, one of the most unusual small towns in the United States, and a magnet for practitioners of transcendental meditation. Denise has fashioned a life that includes extended travel around the world, not to go sightseeing. But to explore life. Last November, at the height of the COVID pandemic in the United States, the niece left to go to Croatia for four months and explore a little more. I know we’re going to talk about all of this. So welcome to nice.
Denise Gallagher 01:56
Oh, thank you so much. I came I’m really happy to be here.
Achim Nowak 01:59
Likewise, and I in every conversation, I like to go start with what our dreams and aspirations were when we were younger, because sometimes they come true. And sometimes they don’t. Who did young Denise want to be when she grew up? Or did she have thoughts of who she wanted to be?
Denise Gallagher 02:21
Well, my first response to that I came is that I really didn’t want to grow up, you know, I adults that I saw in my life did not look real happy. And so I didn’t really want that life. And I remember very clearly telling my dad, I didn’t want to grow up. But you know, after a time, I started to think, okay, I want to understand what makes people do what they do, what makes them tick. And I realized that I have a sick mother growing up. And so probably my desire not to grow up had a lot to do with the fact that I didn’t get much playtime. I wanted to be able to be free and to play. But as time went on, I started to think I want to be able to help people. And obviously there I was helping my mother. And oh, I would say by the time I was nine or 10, I knew that I would work in this field of social work psychology. I also had some aspirations to be a lawyer who served poor people. But that was it.
Achim Nowak 03:22
I happen to know, you alluded to this, that your mom had a terminal illness. And I believe she passed when you were 11. That’s right. And that time required you to do a lot of helping around the home because your mom couldn’t. Can you give us a glimpse of what that was like?
Denise Gallagher 03:43
Oh, gosh, by the time I was seven, she started on dialysis. And they told me at the time that she probably wouldn’t live more than three years. So you have to imagine a seven year old hearing that, of course, I wanted to negotiate with God was like, no, not my mother. Yeah, but part of me was very afraid. I was a good Catholic girl. And, of course, as a child, we all think that we are responsible for the health and happiness of the people that we love, especially our parents. So I took it upon myself to be as good as possible, and as quiet as possible and study hard and make her proud of me with the hope that I could keep her alive. Obviously, it was a huge loss. She died when I had just like you said turned 11 I still had a good deal of magical thinking at that point. You know, things that I had to unravel as I got older.
Achim Nowak 04:42
Well, I’m listening to you and I’m thinking of the word lose, and you talk about the loss, but I’m also thinking about thinking about what we find on the other side. And we’ll spend a good chunk of our conversation looking at your life right now which in my mind is a life of exploration and great adventure that not everybody has. And it’s kind of cool to know. And I don’t mean cool in that exciting wave did that it started with a loss as a child. My sense of you as an adult, is that you juggled concurrently two identities, you worked as an occupational therapist. And you were always an artist in in different ways on different facets. Now, juggling two things, many artists do that. But if you think of those 2030 years of your life, and think of what are some moments that might stand out where you go, yeah, this is why I’ve fashioned this life for myself. But to everything that’s light, there tends to be a dark side, right? What was some of the challenges or frustrations of fashioning that sort of life? So what what jumps out in your mind as I asked this question.
Denise Gallagher 06:05
So my idea was, is that I was not going to work full time, ever, so that I could do my art work. So it’s always been that balancing act. And I went back to school to be an occupational therapist, because honestly, it was a way to support my art, passion. It was much less draining than teaching, I could work with small groups. And you know, I initially for the first 13 years, as an OT, I worked in psychiatric settings. So I could use a lot of artwork. And, you know, I love all sorts of movement and creative expressions and singing. So I did all of that with my patients. treating patients is hugely, hugely fulfilling, and also stressful. You know, I mean, I loved the work, especially when I would get referrals for people who weren’t getting better. You know, they had maybe had all kinds of therapy and had hit a obstacle and a standstill, and I would see them and they would make breakthroughs. So a lot of satisfaction in my work. And working in a hospital. I was monitored for about 15 years for my efficiency. I mean, if you wonder, you know, how your Medicare dollars are being spent, you know, the doctors and nurses and therapists, we get pinched, you know, to be as efficient as possible. And so I was always feeling that I could never measure up. So I, that was the story. That was when you say, How did I know at one point, you know, there’s the downside, that was the downside.
Achim Nowak 07:41
Measuring efficiency of your work in the hospital feels like insane to me, just as you were describing it. But you alluded to, and I said this introduction, you know, you live in Fairfield, Iowa, small town. What’s unusual about it is it has attracted people from all over the country actually all over the world who are committed meditators. So you’re in it, you’re in his town, small, rural Iowa. Well, lots and lots of people meditate. It’s an almost mythical place. I’ve never been, but I’ve heard about fear. So can you give us a glimpse of how do you What’s it like to be in a town where people meditate? Like, do you experience that? How does that manifest? Or how does Fairfield feel different from other small towns like it?
Denise Gallagher 08:31
You know, I can, I can tell you the contrast was enormous coming from Philadelphia to Fairfield, you know, my shoulders just started to sink dramatically. I wasn’t locking my house, I wasn’t afraid. I felt as if I was in liquid love. The contrast is very strong in the beginning, and especially when you’re meditating in groups, they have this idea that when you you put a thought out there, you just let it go, you have a desire, you let it go. But then you see that it manifests. And that was happening a lot, especially my first year. And so now it’s just sort of normal, you get to the place you go, oh, there’s a great softness here. And as you said, I mean, people do come and it’s many, many spiritual teachers come through here. So for me, it was just delightful to have a place that I didn’t have to explain a lot. You know, I mean, the foundation of 1/5 of the town, it’s a spiritual foundation. And so it may not be there’s that you’re in the very midst of the movement. The tm movement has various degrees of people’s engagement. I live in a house, you know, I have a regular job, but there’s many people who live on the campus and who are much more focused on their program and that’s a high priority for them. And I say that’s great, but it’s just it’s very soft and People who come from out of town they say, oh, there’s something special here. People smile, you know, they can tell that everybody looks really healthy. And the meditators are freely hugging each other, especially now since we’re not as worried about. It’s been an endless fascination for me just how people experienced this town. And also, because I worked with non meditators. For the 23 years that I worked at the local hospital, I would always ask the local people, how do you experience the meditators? And how is this for you? And, you know, really, over time, it’s gotten very smooth and very easy. I think in the beginning, there was a little bit of a learning curve as everybody was getting used to each other. But yeah, I don’t know what else to say other than you’ve got to come and visit really.
Achim Nowak 10:50
You use this phrase liquid love, which jumped out at me. Describe to our listeners, what liquid love feels like for you.
Denise Gallagher 11:07
Oh, my gosh, I was going to the golden domes. If you any of your listeners, Google Fairfield, Iowa, you’ll see that there’s two huge geodesic domes. And one for the man one for the women. It’s a place where you get very, very settled, and it’s just intensely blissful and sweet. We have these thick foam mattresses. And when you walk on these, it’s obviously very soft. And I would look around the room and I just would feel this vibration that was so supportive, and so palpable to me physically, that I experienced that is liquid law. It was it was quite, quite dramatic for me in the first the first year. So
Achim Nowak 11:58
I know that at one point in your life, you received some clear messages about new things to look at and investigate for yourself. You share that with me. And I loved that because I I’ve had very similar experiences where the messages were so clear. And then the question always is, do I listen? Or do I ignore? So for our listeners, because you do some very cool stuff right now that you weren’t doing before you got these messages? What’s the message you received? How did it manifest? And then we’ll talk about what happened after the messages.
Denise Gallagher 12:33
I started exploring photography, I left behind just painting. So I guess it’s about 2009. I was looking at this particular photographer, a Danish photographer who is running photography workshops in Tuscany. So you have to imagine I’m considering this and we’re having a rosary. This is right around Christmas, and we’re having a Christmas rosary. And I’m asking Mary, okay, what do you think I should do about next year? You know, what, what do you feel I’m, I’m just really focused on what does this year have in store for me, I mean, I have really got to the limit of a great deal of stress in my job, I could feel you know, I’m coming home late getting 20 minute lunches, feeling, go go go all the time. I wanted something different. And at that point, I was about 55. So the clear message came back to me. She said, quit your job. She said, go to Italy. Study With Hans Cruz, and I will take care of the wrist, I will take care of the details. And I remember after that rosary, I spoke to my two friends. And I was in tears. I said, I got this message. And they said to me, don’t be afraid. Don’t ever let money get in the way of you following what you’re supposed to do. No matter if you lose everything, we will be there for you. You can stay in our you know, we have a guest house in the back. You have so many friends who support you don’t ever be afraid and think that money is an obstacle. Because of the insecurities in my childhood. I really had that real dependence on that regular paycheck. So for me to break free and to go away. I went away for seven months. I went for seven months in 2013. And I truly felt the Divine Mother right there with me, you know, and it’s for those of you who don’t have that belief system, you could replace it with just a feeling that you’re safe feeling that you were at home everywhere. And that was the sense I had. I mean, I just felt that everyone was someone who could be a friend. And time and time again. That was reinforced Yeah, that was it. And truly, I followed that that. What shall I say that invitation from the Divine Mother, and I’ll take care of the details and she did
Achim Nowak 15:17
A word from your sponsor. That’s me. I invite you to go to the website associated with this podcast wwww.myfourthact.com you will find other equally inspiring conversation with great humans. And you will also learn more about the my fourth act mastermind groups where cool people figure out how to chart their own Fourth Acts .Please check it out. And now back to the conversation. Just for our listeners, I want to say if this if you believe in messages from the Divine Mother, what Denise just said makes perfect sense. If you don’t, you might go wow, this is a little woowoo. For me. From my own life, I just want to share without telling the entire story at one point. I was in Sedona, a very spiritual place. And I got a very clear message that I was to live in a White House on an island in the Caribbean for a while. Six months later, that’s what I did for a year. Like You I left my job to do that. We all receive messages all the time that we don’t hear. Because he used the phrase where go, go go. I had to chuckle because even in Fairfield, Iowa, I can barely you can do go go go. Oh, sure. I want to deconstruct the seven months journey a little more. Because when when I hear you say oh, well, I went for seven months. What are some of the physical places you went to give us a sense of how far just physically countries cities? Where did you go in those seven months?
Denise Gallagher 17:04
So I didn’t do Asia, I do Africa. I did fly all the way around the world. But I would say primarily in that point, it was it was Southern Southern Europe. That was seven months. I in 2016. I did a nine month trip. So I’m trying to to pull those two apart. I think oh, let’s see in 2013. I also did go to went to Scandinavia went up to Norway. I was in Denmark and yeah.
Achim Nowak 17:38
So we gather that the nice you fashion a life where you go on these long. I’m gonna call them journeys, seven months, there’s a nine month one coming up. We’re going to talk about the one that happened to the pandemic in a moment. Now, we might be listening to you and somebody might think, well, this is just a wealthy woman from Fairfield, Iowa, she’s inherited a lot of money, she can just run around the world and do her thing. Yeah, easy. If you have a lot of money in your bank account, what would you say to those folks?
Denise Gallagher 18:14
Talk to me. That’s not my reality. I’m not a wealthy person. I actually never heard any money from my family, and no one has ever helped me. So I’ve pretty much been single, I have a partner now. But I’m not in this situation that you would would think how the heck does she do this? She’s got to have money. I have a very simple modest home. And I bought it back in 1990 when I was married to Oh, a brief marriage. And at that point, it made sense for us to buy a house and it was $27,500. Okay, I still have that house. I paid it off in 2001. And it’s a sweet little cottage, it’s maybe a little bit over 1000 square feet. But every inch of it is an artist space. So I have my house, it’s paid off. I have a I’ve always bought used cars, I pay them off. And then when they’re pretty much done for then I get another used car. I’m happy to just have you know, an older car. To be honest, I came is I prioritize my freedom and my capacity to travel. It’s always a balancing act for me, like how much needs to be done. I mean, if you were to see, you look around my house, I don’t have a dishwasher. I don’t have a clothes washer. I don’t. I have an extremely simple life, you know, so that has to be important to you. I have a very rich and beautiful life, but I don’t own what a lot of people feel that they need to have. I don’t have those things and I I’m always looking towards How can I balance having energy for my art and having money to be able to travel really. And my health, I put a lot of money into my own personal growth. I worked many, many years with Trillium awakening. So these are really my priorities travel, and my health and my my own evolution. But you know, if it’s important, then you prioritize it. That’s all I say. And I use frequent flyer miles.
Achim Nowak 20:33
So I heard simplicity, I heard freedom. I heard travel, and I’m stressing these three words, because I would bet you a lot of money that every single listener we have, aspires to all of those things. My sense is that your travel and I alluded to this introduction isn’t so much about seeing every famous art artifact along the way there, there’s a deeper purpose to your travel to these long travels. I see you as a spiritual seeker and as a spiritual dimension to your travels. Can you give us an example of what that might look like and feel like
Denise Gallagher 21:17
I am kind of purpose driven, I have a very strong sense of my purpose and my mission, the gifts that I feel like I’ve had in my life, I want to share them. And I do share them through imagery. And in 2013, specifically, my motivation had a lot to do with separating myself from the constraints of time, being time bound, being time driven. I remember I was working with a chiropractor, he was using Body Talk, and I said, Why am I so tired all the time, he said, You’re always feeling as if there’s never enough time. You’re always feeling you’re not able to catch up. And I thought, Oh, that’s it. I wanted to change my relationship with time, I wanted to understand what it’d be like to not have a watch and just go at my own pace. And of course, everybody wants that when they go on a vacation. I wanted that for an extended amount of time. So it became real to me, how can time actually stretch out stretch out so that I didn’t feel a pressure about it was eroding my health. The efficiency studies really eroded me in that sense of just always feeling behind, I couldn’t catch up. So the other aspect is that I really living in Fairfield. Everything was familiar and easy and predictable. In a great extent, I knew obviously, there’s a whole chunk of my life that was not predictable, but many aspects of it, I felt, okay, I got this down. And I’m, I’m one who wants to challenge myself spiritually. I felt like, okay, you’re kind of complacent here. You need to see when the rubber meets the road. Are you really able to stay grounded? Do you still feel that trust and less, I said, I was really being asked by the Divine Mother to let go, I was the one who wanted to have control. I mean, here I had this childhood of everything out of control. I was very much like, I want to make sure I got all my ducks in a row in 2013 was like, how can I start to let go and not know, I mean, I actually experienced waking up in the morning and not knowing which direction I would turn the car. I’m not sure where I’m going to go or I go walking. I go, I’m not sure. And it was always an exploration of letting go. Can I just trust and be in the moment? You know, we all get this idea of what is it to be in the moment. I truly wanted to experience that I wanted to understand what what it looked like for me to trust my intuition. And I feel like the divine talks to me through my intuition. What would that be like to just really be in that flow? Trusting and my intuition, I feel it through my body. So my body would say yes or no. And that was how I made decisions. And and it was, to be honest, I come back, you know, I came back after that trip and I would talk about it and people would say how was it and I would start to cry because I felt I really had that sense of flow and of whole recalibration spiritually.
Achim Nowak 24:48
I’m gonna push you a little bit. I love your story because I had the exact same experience. You know, you know, I lived in Tobago for a year I became a wind surfer time seem to stand still there. So I can Know what that was like? And I know the daily experience of flow and waking up in the morning and not knowing what you’re going to do that day and just finding out. How can we be in the moment when we’re back in Fairfield, are back in my case Florida in a more structured life? Because it sounds easy when we’re traveling, you know, we’re waking up, we do whatever we want. It’s a wonderful gift, of course. But have you been able to translate that sense of being and bring it back to when you return to Fairfield?
Denise Gallagher 25:39
The more I experience with that is, the more it it just naturally, it happens. It’s like a muscle when you know that, then it’s like, Oh, am I back in that same mindset that I used to have, you have that awareness, because you know, the contrast, you know what it’s like not to have it. When I travel, I nurture myself in ways that I mean, I treat myself like a queen, I’m ultimately caring for myself. And so that translates into, when I come home, I want to take care of myself so beautifully. You know, because that’s important. And I know that if I take care of myself, I’m taking care of the world.
Achim Nowak 26:24
I want to jump to your most recent trip. And I want to set the stage. And if I get this wrong, please correct me. So my understanding is that in November of 2020, at the height of the pandemic, COVID pandemic United States, in the middle of intense year, there were, there was an election, we had George Floyd, it’s a murder, we had black lives matter. At the time when Americans were not allowed to go pretty much anywhere. You realize that Croatia, a place that you love, Latin Americans in and you knew that the COVID rate was really, really low there. And so November, you left this country, and you ended up I said, four months by I believe it’s actually five months, you went to Croatia for five months. Talk us through your thinking process of going on this journey. I’m curious about what people said to you. Because I have a hunch subtle, somebody thought that was an insane thing to do. Just just paint the picture of the decision to leave at the height of a lot of stuff going on.
Denise Gallagher 27:35
You’re right. A lot of people did think it was a little crazy, but oh gosh, you know what, I do want to go back a little bit to 2016 and 2017 because that set the stage for me going back, okay. I went in 2016 with the idea of giving back I really felt so full. And so I went to volunteer with the Syrian refugees in Greece, and I did that october november of 2016. And I needed to earn some more time in the Schengen zone. The Schengen zone is most of Europe. Turns out that Croatia is not part of at least at that point, not part of Schengen. I had recalled that my cousin had been in ravine back in, oh gosh, when she was 16 years old. And I saw on Ibn when I was 16. We’re about the same age. And I thought I will go there one day.
Achim Nowak 28:30
Ravine is a city in Croatia. Let’s just say that.
Denise Gallagher 28:34
Yes, I’m sorry ravine is right along the coast, and in a park called estria. And lo and behold, I go there with the idea. I’m just going to be there for two weeks. And I arrived in this town to ravine, which used to be under control of Italy. And I get off the bus and I see that everybody is speaking either Croatian or Italian. And since I used to live in Italy, I was in heaven. I knew I knew that. You know, if God had created a town, it would have been that town for me, personally. So I went and traveled I actually went and did some volunteer work in Bali. I went that trip over to New Zealand and to Australia and I thought, am I ready to come back? And I thought no, no, I got to go back to Ruby. So I went back for another two weeks. I left in 2017. And I promised myself that when I retired, I would go back there for at least three to six months. And so lo and behold last year 2020 around July August, I finally decided I’m going to quit hospital work. Obviously COVID was going on and I was in a bit of a funk. Then one day I happened upon the fact that I really at that point had no idea Croatia was open to Americans. Okay, so you have to imagine I started thinking this is Maybe September, October, I thought, can I do this? Okay, I worked in a nursing home, I’ve worked in hospitals, I’ve worn masks, I’ve worn shields, all the protective equipment. And I thought, I know what it takes to be safe. I’ve done it, I wasn’t able to socially distance. And I looked at the numbers and history of particularly, and they were a green zone of all of Europe, they had the lowest COVID numbers. And so I thought, you know what, I can do this, I can get my PCR testing done at my job. I had been putting money aside to travel, I decided to start taking my social security and, and still work. So all that money just went into my travel fund. And honestly, I had to really sit deep inside myself and meditate and pray. And I got the feeling that even if I were to get sick, would I be able to handle that? What if I were to die? Okay, how would that be? And honestly, I came if I had not had enough experiences traveling, and knowing that I was always safe and protected. And you know, I had a situation in Bali, where I ended up going to the emergency room. Oh, this fellow who was my driver, he went with me, he held my hand, the doctor was just darling, the person that my B and B would wrap my leg and take me back and forth to the doctor. I knew that I had angels out there if I needed them. And I knew that because I had that experience. And I said, Okay, something happens in Croatia, I’ll deal with it. It was a number of factors. It was me personally, knowing that I could navigate it. I also saw that there was very few people flying my girlfriend came from Sicily, and she showed me images, there was nobody in the airports. And I thought, okay, okay, God, you’re sort of open the store for me. There’s this nice see the path. And I explained all this to my friends. And I just said, I don’t mean to trigger you. I don’t mean to worry you. But this is what I’m doing. Like I was married to a fellow from Yugoslavia, you know? And he said, oh, here you are doing just what you’re not supposed to be doing. You’re supposed to stay home, what are you doing? What are you thinking? And I just said, this is a very personal decision. And I I know I can do this. So I did.
Achim Nowak 32:36
Part of your travels. And I hope our listeners are hearing it that you weasel phrase you sort of make it up as you go along and you make decisions. And I have a hunch that this trip sort of got longer, the longer you stay there, as well. And because you are a really marvelous photographer, you generated an exquisite amount of exceptional beauty that you shared with the world via Facebook, while you were in this somewhat sheltered place, and Istria. Talk a little bit about what doing the photography means to you? what you love about it, why you share it?
Denise Gallagher 33:25
Oh, gosh, travel is a spiritual experience. photographing is a spiritual experience. I guess I should say all of life is spiritual. To me. There’s nothing that is not. I’m one of these people who I know intimately. That spirit is, is here. It’s palpable. And everything I do, and experience is a manifestation of that. I like to feel that imagery comes to me, I, I go on a walk, but I have no idea what I’m going to see. And I sense it actually, literally in my body. When something it’s like the light comes a certain way. I see somebody standing or I see. And I literally I feel this excitement come through my body. And it’s like, Yes, I like to tell people, my eyes are really 180 degrees. And everything is sensing the beauty, everything is sensing that there could be a moment that I want to register, and I do this actually, I’m in a state of, of, of surrender. I’m in a state of receptivity. You know, it’s a really blissful place for me to be. And then I want to share that in my images. I mean, people say, I feel the silence in your work, I feel. There’s an uplifting sense. There’s a sense of just serenity, time and time again, people would say you have helped me get through this awful, awful winter of staying home and people would say I look forward every day to seeing your images and I came to realize That’s sharing them on Facebook was my way to give back, I had the blessing to have the wherewithal and the money and the health and whatever it took to do it. I was giving back and hopefully uplifting everyone who saw the images. That’s what it was about for me.
Achim Nowak 35:19
You know, what really strikes me, you talked about helping your mom. You were a helper and healer and hospital and psychiatric second places, but on the clock, when people are tracking you, and and you’ve liberated yourself from the clock, right, which is what these journeys are. And you’re helping, in some ways in a different way, in in a deeper way, in a way that I can tell as a speaking comes from a deep place within you, especially when you when you mentioned the word silence and bringing yourself and others back to the silence. Now I know you, you have more journeys ahead of you. But based on what you know now, Denise, if you were to whisper some words of wisdom into the ears of younger Denise, what would you say to young Denise that, you know, now, after all these travels and everything you’ve learned?
Denise Gallagher 36:25
Oh, gosh, that’s a good question. You know, the first thought that comes to me is that the whole idea of, of original sin, I took that seriously, I would tell young 20s. That’s a bunch of BS. I’m sure it’s served its purpose in some way. But I would say to young Denise, you are perfect and whole, and lovable as you are, you don’t need to do anything to be loved. You don’t need to do anything to gain divine favor, you are absolutely a being of light, and you can relax. You know, and I think because of having a sick mother, I did take responsibility. And I now take responsibility for myself, I don’t take responsibility. For anyone else. I don’t have people who are dependent, depending on me, I’m not a caregiver, I take responsibility to stand up and show love to the fullest extent. You know, I would just say relax and play and life is to be lived and enjoyed and don’t take it so seriously. Go out and and there and risk and you can’t fail. You are always surrounded. I mean, I’ve been fortunate to know that I I do have, you know, a soul family. Here physically, I have a soul family. On the other side, I feel a great deal of spiritual support.
Achim Nowak 37:58
Well, we’ll end with with the understanding that we’re all part of a soul family, as you said. And if I go back to the message you received when you did the rosary, which is you will be taken care of. And our soul families take care of us. So thank you for reminding us of all of this. If any of our listeners are curious about your work and what you do and want to check you out. What’s the best place to to find you?
Denise Gallagher 38:33
Well, I came I would say there’s two places one is I do have a website and that’s www.denise-healer-artist.com. Or you could just plug in my name Denise Gallagher, you would find me. The other thing is I do want to mention is I am at Trillium awakening teacher, and there’s a lot of information about me on that website. And that’s www.trilliumawakening.org/profile/DeniseGallagher/
Achim Nowak 39:07
And both of those sources will be on the My fourth act comm website so people will be able to find it there. Thank you so much for just sharing so generously of yourself and the journey you’ve been on. Oh, it’s been my pleasure I can truly Bye. Bye. Like what you heard, please go to my fourth act calm and subscribe to receive my updates on upcoming episodes. Please also subscribe to us on the platform of your choice. Rate us give us a review and let us all create some magical fourth acts together. Ciao