Season 3
34 Minutes

108 | Jane Moore | How I Broker Luxury Vacation Dreams

Jane Moore is the founder and owner of Papagayo Luxury where she curates custom luxury vacations and villa rentals on Costa Rica's exclusive Papagayo Peninsula.

Jane has, in some ways. lived many people's dreams - and created many people's dream business. After a 12-year publishing career in Los Angeles with National Geographic Magazine, Jane and her husband left for Costa Rica to live their expat adventure. Serendipity led Jane to managing her first vacation rental. Over 11 years later, Jane now resides in Miami from where she oversees an expansive Papagayo Luxury portfolio of handpicked homes in spectacular Costa Rican settings.

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Jane Moore  00:00

When I was engaged, and I was talking with him about things, I was like, Hey, listen, just so you know, I want to have kids in another country because I think that’s really important. And I’m not sure where like there’s a lot of places I would be interested in, but just you know, that’s gonna happen. Or you know that kids kind of a deal breaker. And he was like, that sounds great. I’m in it like do what should we just get married and go

Achim Nowak  00:27

hey, this is Achim Nowak, executive coach and host of the MY FOURTH ACT podcast. If life is a five act play, how will you spend your FOURTH ACT? I have conversations with exceptional humans who have created bold and unexpected FOURTH ACTS, listen, and to be inspired. And please rate us and subscribe on whatever platform you are listening on. Let’s get started. I am delighted to welcome Jane Moore to the MY FOURTH ACT podcast. Jane is the founder and owner of Papa Gaya luxury, where she curates custom luxury vacations and Villa rentals on Costa Rica’s exclusive Papagayo Peninsula. Now, Jane has in some ways lived many people’s dreams, she has created what many might consider a dream business. After 12 your publishing career in Los Angeles with National Geographic adventure magazine, Jane and her husband left for Costa Rica to live their expat adventure. Serendipity led Jane to managing her first vacation rental. And now over 11 years later, Jane resides in Miami. From here she oversees an expensive Papagayo luxury portfolio of handpicked homes in a truly spectacular Costa Rican setting. I hope our listeners miles already just drooling as I talk about what you do. Hi, Jane.

Jane Moore  02:04

Hi, well, you are doing such a great job with your description that I’m drilling also. So thank you for the intro. It was lovely.

Achim Nowak  02:12

I wanted to talk to you for so many reasons. One is that we both have had expat lives. And they can be very enriching. On top of it, your life took you to a place and a country that is sort of a sexy place in many people’s minds. And on top of it, you got to create a business there. But before we start, because sometimes we end up in places that we couldn’t envision when we were growing up. So when you were growing up, and you know how parents ask us like, what do you want to do with your life? What was in your thoughts? Jane?

Jane Moore  02:49

I wouldn’t have to say there was probably two things that I would respond. And I don’t know what age is exactly, definitely when I was younger, I really wanted to be a hairdresser. I had really long hair, and I love to do things with it. And so I love the idea of being a hairdresser and making other people look beautiful. My other thought was I wanted to be a veterinarian, I loved animals. And so I thought that and my dad, both my parents were in the medical field. So I thought that could be a great road. But then that ended when I realized I really don’t like the sight of blood. And that’s probably not something I want to focus on. So that ended

Achim Nowak  03:27

what I’m thinking about since you mentioned that both of your parents are in the medical field and and I just had to giggle when you said I wanted to be a hairdresser. And sometimes when we have parents and very established jobs, they go like really? She wants to be a hairdresser. Did you talk about it? Did they have reactions to

Jane Moore  03:45

it? You know, my parents have always been pretty amazing in letting me run with my ideas. So like creativity, like I’m a super curious person. And I think they cultivated that. And so they didn’t really naysay or even flinch when I would say that at all. You know, I had dolls that I would mess around with their hair and my friends my hair. So yeah, I was really lucky. Yeah,

Achim Nowak  04:15

it’s really nice. I remember I I had a career Early on in show business. And I knew that my parents that was the last thing that wanted for me. But the moment I got some recognition for my work, it was okay. But the ability to just in the spirit of our podcast to encourage encourage all of us to find lives that make us happy, right. I mean, that’s in the end what it’s about. One thing that fascinates me about you and I just wanted to test this, my sense is that you were early on also interested in other languages, other cultures. Would you talk about that a little bit.

Jane Moore  04:54

My upbringing was a little different than some my parents you gave us a choice early on to weaken either. I was kind of crazy at the time. But we could either offer, we had some money that we could spend, we could either spend it on a computer, which was when Apple had just started, or we could buy this lady from our church, a new wheelchair. So of course, as kids were like, well, so I’m sure this, you know, this lady was taken care of, but we ended up getting a computer. So they were super smart, because they made it our choice. But then we also as part of that, eliminate almost eliminated our TV viewership. They’re like, if we’re getting a computer, you’re allowed to watch TV, I feel like it was like a couple hours a week. So it was like two hours or something like that. And we could choose when you’re going to watch it. And then we also learn how to code and all that well, anyway, so that was one part of the thing as far as them being a little bit different. So therefore, I think that helped my creativity, my curiosity, because I was not looking at TV all the time I was read, I was a voracious reader and all that. So when we decided we were going to take our first international trip, or I should say, my parents decided, they said, Okay, we’re going to do this trip. And it was going to be after my, my eighth grade year, and we ended up going well, they chose it, they specifically wanted to go to Israel. So I come from a very religious family, they’re like, we’re gonna go to Israel, and we want you to, you know, see this country and the birth of many religions. So we went and that was my initial foray into international travel. And it was interesting to me because I was completely slammed with completely different culture, completely different languages completely. Like, it was just so different. I believe that that really made an impact. So from there in high school, I ended up taking I took French as my four year language. I also during that time, there was a nine weeks Japanese class, I took Russian in high school. Then when I went to college, I tested out some French, I think I took a semester. And then I went to Russian, which I really liked. But then I ended up taking Mandarin. And they may have studied abroad. I spent a summer in Taiwan, I spent a semester in Nanjing, China. And so and then when I came back, I decided I didn’t want to do anything with China. But yeah, it really has made me super curious about a lot of other cultures. And being able to communicate was really helpful. Even though my these different languages, I wasn’t great at any of them. So Spanish is my best foreign language. But that’s kind of the history there.

Achim Nowak  07:30

Well, I chuckled, because I grew up in foreign cultures. And I had a dad who exposed me to a lot of those things early on. And I realized as I listened to you, how much of that has also shaped my decisions in life and that curiosity. And I appreciate you for using that word. Now I know you. You ended up in Los Angeles, and you ended up working in publishing. When I think of that, I think of two things. I think of movies I’ve seen where they’re very glamorous offices, and everybody is alpha driven, harsh cutthroat. This is the stereotype. So you were in that world for 12 years, give us a snapshot of what it was like to first of all, I mean, Los Angeles, it’s a city that people glamorize, in your publishing another profession that people glamorize.

Jane Moore  08:22

Yeah, I was focused on Asian studies, but my minor was psychology. And I ended up going into advertising straight off the bat, because, well, I had a connection. My uncle was in advertising. He was he did the Incredible Edible eggs campaign. So like he had great connections. And so I was like, This sounds really interesting, because what I really liked about advertising and psychology is, is really the psychology of why people do what they do. So getting an advertising made a lot of sense to me. And so I started in advertising at an ad agency and then went to TV, I started at Turner Broadcasting, I realized that I didn’t grow up with the TV, so I kind of was really weird. And didn’t, I didn’t love it. And also, I was a hobbyist photographer. And so I switched, I shifted from TV to print to magazines. And then so I was in Chicago for six years doing that. And then I moved to LA. And I expected not to like LA because I really I’d asked to be moved to San Francisco. And instead I managed the West Coast office and I absolutely loved it. And you’re so right that there’s this whole energy this vibrant, frenetic, crazy energy with with Hollywood. And I was in that for a while because the magazine I first did was my clients were like universal and all the movie theater, movie companies and things like that. So I was in that for a while I go to premieres and that was so fun and interesting. But then I shifted and I started working at backpacker magazine. So then I was completely on the other side which is so true about LA you’ve got the Hollywood scene you’ve got the craziness of that and fun of that. And then there’s such great diverse outdoor opportunities, you’ve got the ocean you’ve got, you can go skiing, you know, it’s three hours away. And there’s hiking everywhere. So it really spoke to me and I really loved la still do.

Achim Nowak  10:16

I again, I’m chuckling as I’m listening to you, because I, I’ve lived in on the East Coast for decades. But I’ve been blessed to do a lot of work in Los Angeles. And sometimes I’m there for long stretches of time. And I’m one of those people when I land at LAX, and pick up my rental car, I immediately feel like I’m home. And so everything you described, I also experienced, I just, you know, in there all the complaints about the traffic and all that nonsense, but I’m a happy camper in Los Angeles. So I completely know what you said. Now, since you said that so beautifully. My understanding is that, but at some point, you and your husband left Los Angeles, to move to Costa Rica. And because Costa Rica is this fantasy country, for many people. You did this, I think 1112 years ago while back. And I think the expat experience has changed as it’s become a more and more popular country for people to go to to retire. I’d love to really in detail. Understand. So how does somebody who loves Los Angeles has a great job, great career? Go? Oh, I think we’re gonna move to Costa Rica.

Jane Moore  11:34

Yeah, that’s a really interesting question. So I was working at the time, I was working at National Geographic adventure magazine, which is like, That’s me. I’m adventure girl. One of my nicknames is jungle Jane. So it was like the best job I could ever have in publishing, because it was such a fit with who I was. And so when I was engaged, and I was talking with him about things, I was like, Hey, listen, just so you know, when we say we want to have kids, I want to have kids in another country, because I think that’s really important. And I’m not sure where, like, there’s a lot of places I would be interested in, but just you know, that’s gonna happen, or, you know, the kids kind of a deal breaker. And he was like, that sounds great. I’m in it, like, do what should we just get married and go? And I’m like, Sure, why not? It was I was kind of a little burnt out on publishing. I’d been in it for a dozen years. And, you know, I’m a bit of a perfectionist, I’m super work driven. And, you know, it was kind of maybe a little exhausted and burnout. So when he was like, Should we just do it? Now? I’m like, you know, maybe we should. So we researched where to go and came up with Costa Rica, I’d been there, maybe 10 or 15 years before, maybe 10 years before that. And I was like, I don’t need to go visit. I know, I could live in Costa Rica. Because we, you know, I also like Chile a lot. But Chile is too far. And like, we need to be someplace where it feels like we’re in another country, like, Canada wasn’t an option, for example, or like the Bahamas was too close or whatever. So it has to feel like we’re in really a whole other vastly different country far enough, like I said, where you feel, you know, like you’re away, but also a place where people will visit you and also where you feel safe. So not all the countries in Central America feel really safe. And Costa Rica has everything going for it. So we ended up getting married. And then we ended up driving to Costa Rica, which is bananas, too. We ended up living there for 13 years. And so I’ve been in Miami for about six and a half years.

Achim Nowak  13:36

Yeah. I just want to dwell a little bit on that sentence you said, which is, I knew I could live there. And I think and I want to elaborate in for everybody who’s listening, because that’s a powerful sensation to have. And many of us have that. But we don’t follow up on it. I remember, business took me to Shanghai. I’ve been to Shanghai many times, I had never had a great urge to go to China. But the moment I was in Shanghai, and it’s a pretty wild and insane City. I went, I could live in Shanghai. The yearning wasn’t strong enough to make it happen. But that’s a powerful feeling going like I and I could live there to me on the deepest level means I could be happy here. Yes, to be happy living here. Something about the energy, the culture, the spirit resonates. Yes. A word from your sponsor. That’s me. I invite you to go to the website associated with this podcast Fourth You will find other equally inspiring conversation with great humans. And you will also learn more about the my fourth act mastermind groups where cool people figure out how to chart their own fourth acts. Please check it out. And now back to the conversation. Where exactly in Costa Rica did you move to?

Jane Moore  15:07

Well, so we moved a couple of places he ended up having his family business actually started pitching business in Costa Rica. Once his dad found out, we want to move there. So we ended up where he ended up getting a a position within his family business. And so we lived in the middle of nowhere, Costa Rica. And I didn’t speak Spanish, and he is American, but he had grown up in a Latin American country. So we had good Spanish as far as like, I think he left when he was like 12, or 13. So he didn’t have business Spanish. But anyway, so he joined the family business, it was doing stuff in this little tiny town. And then after a bit, we decided that I would live in the in the capital, and he would commute. He’s like, I think you need friends to talk to and pick English with. And so that’s what we did. So then we moved to the Capitol, and he commuted, and then he ended up moving. It sounds weird, but moving in with me, then we were both in the same place in the Capitol, and that was 1000 times better. And San Jose is really a great capital. I mean, you’re not gonna live right in the capital, you’re gonna live in the suburbs, but it was really nice. And there is like, as you alluded to, there’s a nice expat community there as well already.

Achim Nowak  16:23

Well, let’s jump ahead to the moment you started managing a rental or a property? Because not only did you live in Costa Rica, you started a high end luxury rental business. And I’m sure people going well, how the hell did she do that? How did you stumble into that? Or how that show up in your life? Jane?

Jane Moore  16:48

Yes, certainly, it was, it was very organic. The way it happened is originally my job was to make friends. So that was my original job of two person family. And so then I started doing photography, because I had always done it as a hobby. And then what happened is, we ended up as a large family. So like, we bought a property at Peninsula Papagayo. So the way that it worked was when you bought there

Achim Nowak  17:14

before you tell the story, paint a picture of what’s beautiful and extraordinary about Peninsula Papagayo.

Jane Moore  17:21

Okay, so I’ll actually step back a second because one of the things that my father in law had charged us with is he’s a little bit of a romantic and he’s like, I think we should buy a property and build a hotel, a boutique hotel, we’ll have someone else manage it. So we were searching for the ideal property. As part of our search on both coasts, on both sides of Costa Rica, we stumbled upon the peninsula, Papagayo, which is where the Four Seasons had just opened. So we moved June 2004, to Costa Rica, and the Four Seasons had just opened that year. Also at Peninsula Papagayo. When we went in the gates, we were gobsmacked. The setting was absolutely stunning. The infrastructure for someone who was looking at things like infrastructure and how to build things in Costa Rica, the infrastructure was insane. There, all the wires were buried. It was jungle meets luxury, but definitely wild Leung wild nature not tame or like annoying, you know, monkeys that are being fed by tourists, but that kind of thing. It was like, true wilderness, but in a luxury setting. So we’re just like, oh, my gosh, this is incredible. So we ended up buying a property there. And when you bought there, the peninsula would sell it to you. And then they would manage the rentals if you wanted to rent. So that’s what happened. As it turned out, we weren’t super happy with how it was being run. So we I’m like, Listen, my kids now we’re like two and four or something. People say as you get older, you should have a job. So when you’re an empty nester, you have something going on. Like, let me just take it over. It’s just the same thing as ad sales. It’s something I’m passionate about. It’s not not to adventure, but it’s this amazing place that I’ve been going to for now years. And I love it. And so I took it over and then less than a year later, I think it was like eight or nine months later, the peninsula dissolve their entire rental division. And so then my neighbors are saying, Jane, you’ve been doing it please help me help me. So that’s when I started my business was completely randomly when they close they shattered the business at Peninsula Papagayo and that was an opportunity for me.

Achim Nowak  19:33

You use the word organic and then it really it wasn’t organic, stepping into something that in a way existed but also suited some of the gifts and talents you already had. And as I talk to you I feel your your bubbly enthusiasm, which was clear and probably serves you really well. Now as I’m somebody who started multiple businesses so I I never thought I’d be an entrepreneur and I think I’m I missed serial entrepreneur. And I think I’m good at it. But I know especially in the hospitality business, which is, I’m sure there was a learning curve, because it sounds great. Wow, I’m gonna rent luxury villas and this stunning place. What are some things that you learned that maybe you didn’t know when you took this on and that you learned along the way,

Jane Moore  20:22

I had previously had some rental properties, but in Chicago, and then in even while I was in Costa Rica, I had one in Florida, which was kind of random, too, but, but those were year long contract. So I’d had experience renting but not vacation rentals. So that was a different thing. I think the biggest aspect that took some learning and took some doing, and I kind of had a not exactly a mentor, but I had someone who was on my side cheering me on and helping me was working with travel agents and wholesalers, because I had to learn things like, Absolutely, you have one rate, you don’t give special rates to people that call you direct versus travel agents, because then if their client calls you, you’re going to be, you know, they’re going to lose credibility, like it’s just not a win win. It’s like, not good. So there’s a lot of things with working with wholesalers, and with travel agents that I had to learn because I was not in that business. And I never use a travel agent personally. So the first time I use a travel agent was actually two summers ago to go back to Israel. But so I really appreciate them. And I also a super valuable part of my business because it fills in the people who reach find me direct. versus, you know, when I have gaps, you know, call me, anybody. So that was learning a learning curve. Yeah,

Achim Nowak  21:48

I can imagine I’ve been at different stages in my life. I’ve been an Airbnb super host, you’ll learn about, yeah, you’ll have to have people who properly clean your place. So it looks really good. And you have to have systems in place that. And in your case, I’m just curious, because you, you offer these beautiful villas, and I would assume that part of your work is the relationship you have with the owners of the villas, managing those relationships. Let me put it this way, if you think about this gorgeous business you have what’s the most enjoyable thing about having that business, but maybe what’s also the most challenging and occasionally frustrating thing?

Jane Moore  22:36

Well, so I love talking with people because you saw when you asked me the question, I couldn’t get out enough words fast enough. I love it. And I love one of the things it’s kind of a tangent is I have kids, and I’m always trying to promote entrepreneurship and translatable or just qualities that you can use anywhere in entrepreneur fashion. So I love that I have this business where they see mom, making money, having fun, having flexibility, and, and all that. So that’s kind of a different thing. But that’s, that’s super important to me as well. And I enjoy that a lot. But I think the most fun is me talking with people the thing you asked me about what I don’t like to write? Yes, I did. You know, the accounting is drives me bananas. But besides that, like in working with, like owners versus travel agents versus direct, I feel like a lot of it is just communicating and trying to be transparent with everything. So there’s no sneakiness because I’ve had people be sneaky with me from the side. Or even people who I had someone who was going to I felt like they were going to sneak more people in and I’m like, Dude, I’m gonna, like, kick you out if you didn’t like, this is like, we’re talking luxury properties like it baffled me. It didn’t happen, but But you know, I just want to have a clear mind and a clear conscious, so I try to be as transparent with everything as I can. So that the communication is, you know, is easy and non confrontational. And hopefully I’m making them a lot of money and hopefully they’re happy and people aren’t getting their houses destroyed. You know, of course,

Achim Nowak  24:30

understood. I’m curious since your your children were born in Costa Rica, right. And that’s what I gather. You live in Miami. Now I know that you’re separated from your husband. But if I were to ask your children what they love about Costa Rica, what would they tell me?

Jane Moore  24:52

My son, he’s always like I’m Tico Tico Tico Tico. That’s the name that they call Costa Ricans is ticos or tikkas. Um He’s super proud of being Tico. And, you know, she is to like we always give teachers at the end of the year or holidays, like coffee from Costa Rica, that I will bring back and candies from Costa Rica. They’re super proud of it. But I don’t know what they really would have liked the most about Costa Rica. I think it’s just such a welcoming group of people that are there. That I think just generally, they enjoyed it. But I do know that they really enjoy Miami as well, for different reasons, I think. But I couldn’t tell you specific thing about what they most liked about Costa Rica.

Achim Nowak  25:43

So I’m curious, because this is called the fourth act. And you’ve had clearly we don’t have to label the acts, but you’ve had more than one act. You had Los Angeles, you lived in Costa Rica, you’re in Miami. Now, we talked to you told me that you had your children relatively later in life. So if you look at where you are, right now, you have this very seductive business, where you I would say you broke her in, in luxury, but beautiful, deeply meaningful experiences. You know, and I know the experiences are important for you as well. If you look ahead, and I’m not saying that we have to have any dreams or the things we want to do, but if you think today, do you? Because when I was an entrepreneur, people always ask me, Do you want to grow your business? Are you happy with the way it is? Are there other things you want him to do that you haven’t done? What what else I’ve been thinking of? So where are you with all that Jane?

Jane Moore  26:40

Well, so I kind of it, I’d love my business. And sometimes I forget it. Like even a couple of weeks ago, I’m like, you know, I asked my daughter, I’m like, should I just sell it? Or, or you know, try something different. She’s like, Mommy, you love this job. You love having public I have luxury. And I’m like, you know, you’re right. I do. Sometimes it’s nice to have a reminder and you know, wonderful. And entrepreneurs. It’s a lonely business. You know how that goes. You have to find your, your group. You know, I, like, you know, I’m super curious. I love new things. Right before COVID. Just randomly I happen to put in my front yard with my daughter, we made a butterfly garden, which was great, because people would always walk during COVID They walked on my block a lot because it’s just kind of a walking block. And we really enjoy that. And then we were in Indiana where my parents live. And every year we we go there and for a couple of weeks for sure. And we have a farm that I grew up on. We don’t have the house anymore, but my grandpa had or my my dad, their grandfather has bees and so they we always help them with the bees. It’s really hard to take the honey off. They’re older. So we always try to help. You know, and I noticed not last summer, two summers ago, I noticed that my son is kind of a Bee Whisperer. He’s neither of them have any fear of bees, they will go out, they’ll still rub the veil, but they don’t they’ll handle things with their bare hands. They don’t encumbered by that. And so at the end of two summers ago, at the end of the time, I’m like, Should we just start have our own hives? And they’re like, Yeah, let’s do that. So that was a year ago, almost exactly. And so we have an apiary in our backyard, we have two hives and probably going to split a hive and make three. So I’m wondering where that might go. Like, I wanted to do that. Because I was like, Okay, let’s start a business, a family business, the three of us, and we’ll have our own honey company. So we did the marketing, we have a real logo, we took our honey off for the first time at the end of March, we’re going to probably take it off this weekend again, we’re selling it, you know, so it’s like, I just went to be college, which is a two day thing like a conference last weekend it was and I met someone who’s like, showed me her friend who has a luxury honey company in northern Florida and like, you know, this can be something. So just keeping my eyes open and trying to keep continue to do things that sound cool or sound fun or sound interesting. Because you just don’t know where it’s going to take you

Achim Nowak  29:18

what I’m hearing as you’re talking what I appreciate it is that I feel like both in the luxury business you have and in the B you let your curiosity lead you rather than Oh, it has to be this kind of business or that kind of business or you know, the getting I believe in strategic thinking, don’t get me wrong, and I heard you talk about what could it be but it’s powerful to be led by just it’s here. I’m drawn to it. Let me explore it some more. You know,

Jane Moore  29:46

yeah, I think I think when you’re talking about the next act, it’s like, you know, I’ve been trying the last couple of years to just do things that bring me joy. And so I’m sitting here where I often work in my kitchen knuck and I one of the first things I did where I where am I consciously like, I’m gonna do something that causes me joy. I think the first one was doing my butterfly garden which cause gives me joy. Every time I see a butterfly, I’m like, that’s I know, that’s my butterfly, because my neighbors don’t have flowers. They have foliage, but not flowers. And then I put in these curtains that are happy they have lemons on and I don’t know what it is yellow color, but they’re super happy. They bring me joy every day, the bees bring me I go to the beehives because I can see them in my backyard, I will go check on them, like five times a day, I’m not even kidding you. So doing things that cause me joy. They’re gonna, they’re gonna lead somewhere. I just know it. But you know, who knows how.

Achim Nowak  30:44

I think that’s a beautiful way to do life. So thank you for sharing that. I’m wondering. Based on your very interesting life journey, and what you know, now, if you if you had a chance to share some life wisdom with the younger version of yourself. And this is not about changing your life. It’s a what would you want her to know that? You couldn’t have known then? But that you know, now?

Jane Moore  31:11

Yeah, I would probably say something along the lines of, you know, stay curious, learn skills, embrace your friends, learn how to chill out because sometimes I’m hyper driven, and I don’t see the forest for the trees, you know, in kind of like Costa Rican way, like Pura Vida, you know, it’s like, you know, chill out a little bit. So maybe maybe just relaxing a little bit more, learning how to consciously relax, and certainly be curious.

Achim Nowak  31:45

That’s beautiful advice. I’ve had the pleasure of looking at your gorgeous website for public value of luxury. And I want to entice everybody to check it out. So if people want to learn more about what you do as a as a luxury vacation broker in and I wanted to say, you don’t just offer the homes as a concierge service. So when you rent something, but probably got your luxury, you get service and help and assistance. While you’re there, where would you like people to look you up?

Jane Moore  32:19

Well, certainly they can follow me on Instagram and Facebook. And I do a lot of posting on LinkedIn also. So you can easily you know, if you’re there more, look there. If you’re on Instagram all the time, check it out, follow me to reach me, it’s Papagayo It’s spelled p a p a g AYO And those are the best ways to reach me and you can find my email and phone number on those locations as well.

Achim Nowak  32:46

Wonderful. I so admire the life choices you’re making. And I know there’s way more cool stuff ahead of you. But in the meantime, thank you for this conversation. I so appreciate it.

Jane Moore  32:58

Yeah, well, I really appreciate you inviting me and it’s always great to talk to you. So thanks for the invitation.

Achim Nowak  33:05

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